Justin Hartwig vs Sean Mahan = No Contest

[Stryker]

Good Article showing statistically how Mahan held up vs NTs and how the NT did the previous/next week.

http://www.postgameheroes.com/?p=2567

[t-bone]

nice find, Stryker.

[topseed]

Now, we don’t mean to totally bash Sean Mahan, we’ve said it a number of times and we’ll say it again…he has all the tools necessary to make a solid NFL Guard (in fact, he will prove to be a very versatile asset and Tomlin will grow to love his “position flexibility” as he can play LG, C, or RG if needed). He gets to the the 2nd level well, he has decent feet, and he can pull and get around the edges and work in space. His major problem is moving large men in close quarters. Unfortunately, the NFL (and the AFC in particular) is full of big fat DT/NT that Mahan must deal with on a weekly basis.

Hopefully Tomlin will end this charade soon and start giving Mahan reps at guard, where he belongs.

[Stryker]

nice find, Stryker.

Thanks T, my buddy Dish sent it to me. He's a blog junkie!

[blitz]

wow. that is amazing. I think we all knew we sucked at center last year. no secret. but that bad??

[Super Dave]

They sucked the next week because Mayhem whooped up on them so badly......

[Secret Santa]

You guys are gonna be eatin some crow when Mahan gets picked up by the *Pats, gets a *SB ring and goes to the Pro Bowl....

[Smooth Criminal]

Not all of that can be based on Mahan. Hell they counted Ty Warren and he's a 3-4 end.

But regardless, Mahan was awful and is not strong enough to be a center in the AFC.

[Vader]

MayDong report?

As I said in another thread, Mahan is one of the worst centers I've ever seen play the position.

[CornerBlitz]

Mahan was actually a pretty decent guard for the Bucs but at center he is hopeless, just too small and too weak to hide. The book is out on him, just plant your big NT or biggest DT right over him and bullrush him into the backfield, nothing the Steelers can do to help him, can't hide a center with double teams,

[markymarc]

Great find Stryker and thanks for sharing. Like we needed more proof that Mahan sucks at center :D Maybe next year they can do a blog on how Hartwig helped improve the OL play in 2008.

[TMC]

Hopefully Tomlin will end this charade soon and start giving Mahan reps at guard, where he belongs.

Yeah, because moving a guy 3 feet to the right or left makes him a better blocker. We should just shove him on out to tackle and send him to the Pro Bowl.

[Parasite]

Well he certainly isn't a quality center for this team TMC, so what do you suggest we do with him?

[Chicoman]

That's a painful article to read. Guys had their best or second best game of the season going against Mahan. PATHETIC! Send him packing along with Trai Essex.

[TMC]

Wait a minute, the numbers listed to start the article do not make any sense. They list:

Arizona-Darnell Dockett-and he is the only guy listed from Arizona. Faneca was blocking Dockett in that game. Dockett beat him up.

Miami-Mahan had to block Holliday and Traylor all game? No one else picked up any blocking in the middle? He cannot have both players attributed to him.

Jets-Robinson and Pouha. Two again?

Pats-Wilfork and Warren, two again? As mentioned, Warren is a DE.

Cleveland-Ted Washington started at NT in the first game. Roye is a DE. Washington had 2 total tackles. Kelly was his backup and he had 1 tackle. Kelly started the 2nd game at NT and had one solo and 6 assists. No sacks were allowed to the NT in either game.

Bengals-Peko is listed twice and Thorton is listed once. Again, both are attributed to Mahan, what about Faneca and Simmons. Peko would play over Faneca.

Denver-McKinley? Adams and Thomas were the starters. McKinley was the 4th DT in the game. The top 3 did not make a play. Who did McKinley line up over?

Baltimore-Ngata had 6 tackles, 4 solo and 2 assists. In the same game, Gregg had his 7 tackles, 1 solo and 6 assists. Again, is Mahan the only guy blocking DTs?

Jags-again, 2 guys, same game. Were they over Mahan when the plays occurred or is he getting credit for all the bad things? And, how is this Henderson's best game when he had 7 tackles against Indy, 6 being solo tackles.

What about the other 5 games they played?

IMO, this is just a hatchet job. They took the result and found reasons to fit the criteria. The result was Mahan is bad......then they hunted for numbers and photos to back it up.

Was Mahan the next great Steeler center? Nope. NOT by a long shot, but there is ample evidence showing why without hunting new stuff (and some unrelated because a DE is not a DT).

I wonder how Hartwig did week in and week out with the Panthers? Kind of hard to compare when you just get the ugly on one.

[TMC]

One other thing....he asks:
Mahan is listed at 6′3″ 301 lbs. Just look at the guy arriving to training camp this season….does he strike you as the type of man that will push a 350 pound NT off the line of scrimmage at the goalline?


http://www.postgameheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mahanarrives.jpg

Is this a bad photoshop or is Max Starks so light now that he is fucking floating off the ground? ;)

[topseed]

Yeah, because moving a guy 3 feet to the right or left makes him a better blocker. We should just shove him on out to tackle and send him to the Pro Bowl.

Yeah, because the center and guard positions are totally the same and interchangeable, and there is no respective difference in the type of blocking or against whom the blocks are made. Good point.

They should move Mahan back to guard, because his limited attributes suit him better there. Or maybe they should keep him at center, where he's proved to be so proficient, and keep Hartwig on the bench.

[TMC]

Well he certainly isn't a quality center for this team TMC, so what do you suggest we do with him?

If Hartwig beats him out, you sit his ass or cut him. If Hartwig does not beat him out and we do not sign LeCharles Bentley (or find someone after cuts), we suffer.

Not many choices now. But moving a guy left or right is not going to help him anchor against the bullrush any better.

For the love of God, if he could not replace Hartings, do you really want him trying to replace Faneca. The ONLY attribute he has that would better serve him at guard is his pulling ability.....but that won't help him against the bull rush and it won't fix his pass blocking.

So, on ANY play where he is not pulling, we are in far worse shape. Kemo is our LG. Simmons is a better player than Mahan......and that is not easy to say. If he is not cut out to be our starting center, he either needs to back the others up and STFU or hit the road.

[Coryea]

If Mahan wasn't going against the opponents biggest Dlinemen, that makes him look even worse. Tomlin even callled out the center position during one of his press conferences.

[TMC]

Yeah, because the center and guard positions are totally the same and interchangeable, and there is no respective difference in the type of blocking or against whom the blocks are made. Good point.

They should move Mahan back to guard, because his limited attributes suit him better there. Or maybe they should keep him at center, where he's proved to be so proficient, and keep Hartwig on the bench.

Yep...because playing guard is easier than playing center....right? That is why there are exactly HOW many $7M a year centers? None. Zero. How many guards make $7M per? Jeff Faine signed a deal making him the highest paid center in the NFL.....6 years, 36.5M. He went to the Bucs.

The only difference between the center and guard is one snaps the ball. We used to pull Dirt AND Hartings to lead runs. Centers have to get to the 2nd level, so they both need feet. They BOTH have to pass block and they BOTH have to anchor against the bullrush.

So, PLEASE feel free to school me on all the finer points of playing center VS playing guard. I would love to know. I mean, other than pulling, pass blocking, and stopping the bullrush, I would be quite interested to see what else Mahan does........or know ANYTHING he does well.

[t-bone]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=8 bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD class=standard vAlign=top align=left bgColor=#ffffff>
<!-- Select Coach --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=biohead><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=biohead>Jeff Saturday -</TD><TD class=bioheadgray>Center </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD width="100%" colSpan=2><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=161 height=107>http://www.colts.com/images/numbers/63.gif </TD><TD align=middle width=92 height=107>http://www.colts.com/images/player_photos/Saturday_Jeff.jpg</TD><TD class=bioinfo width=197>
6-2, 295
North Carolina
10 years in the NFL
FA-99
DOB: 06/08/1975</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Mahan either has bad technique, or just isn't smart.....Saturday is a perennial, and he's Mahan's size.

[bearcatsno69]

If Hartwig beats him out, you sit his ass or cut him. If Hartwig does not beat him out and we do not sign LeCharles Bentley (or find someone after cuts), we suffer.

Not many choices now. But moving a guy left or right is not going to help him anchor against the bullrush any better.

For the love of God, if he could not replace Hartings, do you really want him trying to replace Faneca. The ONLY attribute he has that would better serve him at guard is his pulling ability.....but that won't help him against the bull rush and it won't fix his pass blocking.

So, on ANY play where he is not pulling, we are in far worse shape. Kemo is our LG. Simmons is a better player than Mahan......and that is not easy to say. If he is not cut out to be our starting center, he either needs to back the others up and STFU or hit the road.


Seriously, the guard and center positions are completely different techniques. As a center, you are snapping the ball and making contact with someone who is lined up 6 inches from your mug. This does not give you enough time to set. Mahan is not that technically sound. Hartings, Dirt, and Webster were great technicians. They were able to postion themselves with quick feet and leverage to combat bigger guys. Mahan does not have their ability. I am not a Mahan fan but, he is not a complete waste to keep around. He can be a serviceable backup at center, and maybe compete for time at guard. At guard, you can stagger your alignment to help get some natural separation, you can't get at center. This gives you more time to set up and prepare for your block. A defender is not right in your face at the snap of the ball.

I would rather hold a roster spot for a guy with experience, who can play 3 positions, rather than have a back up who could only play guard or tackle. Center is hard to learn, so having experince is a good thing.

[K from Cal]

His mobility at guard would help him stay competitive in run blocking. He can pull and get leverage on a LB. He is overmatched at Center. My guess is they were looking at having Mahan do more center pulling run plays like they used to do with Dawson. When we went to a more finesse offense and Mahan had to pass block his biggest weakness was exploited. He's okay as a backup lineman because of his versatility but that's it.

[Avoid Lloyd1975]

What is all of this non-sense with the bashing of Mahan? He is our future and an all star IMO. He works the center position like a turnstyle at an amusement park, jut lettin' everybody in.

[topseed]

Yep...because playing guard is easier than playing center....right? That is why there are exactly HOW many $7M a year centers? None. Zero. How many guards make $7M per? Jeff Faine signed a deal making him the highest paid center in the NFL.....6 years, 36.5M. He went to the Bucs.

So now you're using salaries to determine positional difficulty and value? Well, gee, using that logic, I guess running backs aren't worth a shit in your book, because they make less on average than quarterbacks, defensive ends, offensive lineman, defensive tackles, cornerbacks, linebackers, and wide receivers.

Hey, our buddy Max Starks is making nearly $7 million this year; he must be better than any center out there...right?

The only difference between the center and guard is one snaps the ball. We used to pull Dirt AND Hartings to lead runs. Centers have to get to the 2nd level, so they both need feet. They BOTH have to pass block and they BOTH have to anchor against the bullrush.

Some of your statements of late have been plainly ludicrous. The only difference is snapping the ball? Guards have to get to the second level much more often than centers do. Sure, the Steelers pulled Dawson and Hartings on occasion, but most of the time their job was to anchor the middle, usually against larger opponents. If you're suggesting that centers pull just as often as guards in the NFL (or any level of football, for that matter), you're out of your goddamn mind.

So, PLEASE feel free to school me on all the finer points of playing center VS playing guard. I would love to know. I mean, other than pulling, pass blocking, and stopping the bullrush, I would be quite interested to see what else Mahan does........or know ANYTHING he does well.

Feel free to reread what I quoted in my first post, or what K from Cal and bearcatsno69 wrote. I never said Mahan was that good, and he's overmatched at center. That's why it's painfully obvious the Steelers should get Hartwig in there, and better prepare Mahan to backup Simmons and Kemoeatu at guard.

[Irv24]

I'm willing to bet Mahan is not on Chris Simms Christmas card list.

[markymarc]

If Hartwig can't beat out Mahan then we are in trouble. I still would not mind seeing what Mahan could do at guard. Worth a shot if he is going to waste a roster spot.