Where are all the Foote haters now?

[Vader]

Just thought I would stir the pot a little... is he acceptable to play on our defense?

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

I hate Foote....


















J/K...

[Balls&YourWord]

I love how you're trying to give people crap for wanting to upgrade our defense.

No one has ever said that he wasn't acceptable. Everyone who has pushed for Timmons have always said Foote was a capable starter and does a solid, steady job in the Steelers defense. But when you're thinking of a spot to upgrade on this team, you know to help them be better, is Larry Foote not normally the first guy that comes to mind?

Great thread! :rolleyes:

[Blitzburghv5]

He's got great ball hawking instincts. He just doesnt have the foot speed to match RB's or TE's in coverage. He's gotta run the 40 somewhere in the 7.2 range i swear.

[Steelerman]

Foote got schooled last night on one particular big gainer.

[TMC]

I like Foote and I am not upset if he starts this season while we get more time for Timmons. But, Timmons better be our future. The price was too steep for him not to make an impact.

The way I see it, if Timmons sits Foote, then we have gotten even better.

[Blitzburghv5]

I like Foote and I am not upset if he starts this season while we get more time for Timmons. But, Timmons better be our future. The price was too steep for him not to make an impact.

The way I see it, if Timmons sits Foote, then we have gotten even better.

Speaking of..............wtf was LT last night. I was lookin all damn nite for #94. Did he not dress ?

[Vader]

I love how you're trying to give people crap for wanting to upgrade our defense.

No one has ever said that he wasn't acceptable. Everyone who has pushed for Timmons have always said Foote was a capable starter and does a solid, steady job in the Steelers defense.

No, no one has ever said that :rolleyes:

Foote was awful in the preseason,getting abused on pass routes, slow to non existent filling a hole on running plays and always slow to the ball , Typical Foote, he lacks the physical abilities to elevate his game, he is what he is, the slowest, most unathletic starting LB in the game.

[Hines57]

Andymisu is going to have a fucking stroke when he opens this thread. Foote isn't about to lose his spot to Timmons.

[Steelerman]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80ad06dd

The 15 second mark.

[Steelers.exe]

Foote stinks.

[Hines57]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80ad06dd

The 15 second mark.
Shit the whole team lost their jock strap on that play

[Spike]

Foote isn't about to lose his spot to Timmons.


Let's see....game stats<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Foote: 4 tackles, 2 assists

http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080915pd_steelers0914c_330.jpg (http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080915pd_steelers0914c_330.jpg)


Timmons: 1 assist on a tackle


Match over.....try again later

[LetMePlay]

Timmons has to TAKE the job. Foote is not going to let him have it. Foote is a steady player that is going to be hard to bench. It will happen at some point until that point he is the best we have at the position right now.

[Sluzilla]

not a foote hater...at all...but there were several plays out there i wish timmons had been in instead of foote...his closing speed is just so much better...

[Steelerman]

Let's see....game stats<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Foote: 4 tackles, 2 assists


Timmons: 1 assist on a tackle


Match over.....try again later

How many snaps did Timmons play last night?

[TazmanianDevil43]

Foote got schooled last night on one particular big gainer.




yup I remember that.

I think it was toward halftime when Anderson hit his RB outta the flat, he juked out a on-coming Steeler defender (and the best chance to take him down for a minimal gain) and I fucking look up and i see #50.

Timmons would've easily destroyed that RB. He's way faster than Foote, that RB woulda had no shot at making that kinda play.

[Avoid Lloyd1975]

Foote sucks and Timmons has a short IQ. Who do you go with?

[Spike]

yap yap yap


Do it on the field or shut up.

Timmons had a good game the 1st week playing in the nickle coverages....but when we needed to shut down Jamal Lewis, Foote was there to do his job.


It's a team game, afterall, be happy they are winning.

[t-man]

Let's see....game stats<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Foote: 4 tackles, 2 assists

http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080915pd_steelers0914c_330.jpg (http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/images/200809/20080915pd_steelers0914c_330.jpg)


Timmons: 1 assist on a tackle


Match over.....try again later

How many plays was Timmons on the field for? I saw him on for a total of about 5 plays. If you can show me where the number of times they were on the field is even close, I'll listen to it. How many fucking sacks did Harrison get when he sat behind Peezy. So he sucks then, right?

Joe

[Andymisiu]

The way the defense is set up now Foote is in on running downs and Timmons is in for passing downs. The weather and the close game kept the game on the ground and Foote in the game. I think Foote did a great job stuffing some run plays, I like the one when he knocked Lewis off his feet in the backfield.

However, there were some plays where Foote tackled a guy in the flat from behind after he had already gained 6 yards.

I think we should be blitzing Timmons a little more than I've been seeing. But for right now, I'm ok with the way things are going, we're winning right? I think Timmons will eventually take over for Foote but the staff doesn't need to rush that decision. Right now Timmons is providing good depth, and doing a great job in the nickel.

[Andymisiu]

Foote sucks and Timmons has a short IQ. Who do you go with?

I was just wondering if you could provide the test that shows Timmons low IQ? just curious as to why people think he has a low IQ.

[Andymisiu]

Andymisu is going to have a fucking stroke when he opens this thread. Foote isn't about to lose his spot to Timmons.

:D:D no, I'm good. :D:D

[markymarc]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80ad06dd

The 15 second mark.

Foote totally whiffed on that play. Foote has been alright, but I still want Timmons starting in this defense.

[Vader]

Foote totally whiffed on that play. Foote has been alright, but I still want Timmons starting in this defense.

Then why isn't he? Obviously either Foote is the better player or the LeBeau doesn't know what he is doing. I'll take the former.

[SteelerFan448]

I was just wondering if you could provide the test that shows Timmons low IQ? just curious as to why people think he has a low IQ.

He went to Florida State. ;)

[Andymisiu]

Then why isn't he? Obviously either Foote is the better player or the LeBeau doesn't know what he is doing. I'll take the former.

I think we're just getting the best of both worlds right now. They like Foote better against the run and Timmons better against the pass. There both good players right now but Timmons upside is obviously better.

I think you lose more with Foote against the pass then Timmons against the run. Meaning that I think Timmons is the better all around player.

But right now its experience over youth and Foote is the guy. I can't argue with it really because he is a good player. The staff knows what it's doing and Timmons doesn't need to be rushed. We have good depth and we're in a good position having both of these guys.

I also think that Timmons is more flexible coming off the bench in the different ways they can use him. I don't think Foote would offer the same flexiblity and it almost wouldn't make sence to it that way.

[topseed]

How many plays was Timmons on the field for? I saw him on for a total of about 5 plays. If you can show me where the number of times they were on the field is even close, I'll listen to it. How many fucking sacks did Harrison get when he sat behind Peezy. So he sucks then, right?


How many snaps did Timmons play last night?

Nonsense. The number of snaps played is inconsequential.

TMC has already explained to me that it doesn't matter. If the coaches have decided that the guy is a backup {Woodley in '07}, and he plays significantly less or doesn't even see the field because of an injury, as long as the incumbent {Haggans} has at least one tackle, then that starter gets the "edge."

[BermudaSteel]

The way the defense is set up now Foote is in on running downs and Timmons is in for passing downs. The weather and the close game kept the game on the ground and Foote in the game. I think Foote did a great job stuffing some run plays, I like the one when he knocked Lewis off his feet in the backfield.

However, there were some plays where Foote tackled a guy in the flat from behind after he had already gained 6 yards.

I think we should be blitzing Timmons a little more than I've been seeing. But for right now, I'm ok with the way things are going, we're winning right? I think Timmons will eventually take over for Foote but the staff doesn't need to rush that decision. Right now Timmons is providing good depth, and doing a great job in the nickel.

Accepted answer.

*Even though I "prefer" Timmons starting.

[markymarc]

Then why isn't he? Obviously either Foote is the better player or the LeBeau doesn't know what he is doing. I'll take the former.

Oh please Foote is not the better player. If Foote is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all defensive plays? Last I checked that is not happening.

[TazmanianDevil43]

I personally think we'll see more and more of Timmon's as the season progresses.

[t-man]

Oh please Foote is not the better player. If Foote is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all defensive plays? Last I checked that is not happening.

Yep, Foote is the better player, Just like our man Haggans was last year. You see how fast he got picked up when he hit the wire, right. Oh, wait, no one called him when we let him go, for like a month. I wonder what would happen if we announced Timmons was available right now? Nah, no one would be interested at all. ;)

Bottom line, Woodley was better last year, and wasn't on the field every down. Timmons is better this year, and so far hasn't been on the field every down. I think that changes soon, and I would hope the rest of you bitches hope so too. We did spend a first round on the guy, I'd personally rather see him pan out than bust, and from what I've seen on the field so far, I think he'll pan out.

Joe

[Vader]

Oh please Foote is not the better player. If Foote is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all defensive plays? Last I checked that is not happening.

If Timmons is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all the defensive plays? Shouldn't he be starting? Last I checked that's not happening.

[Balls&YourWord]

If Timmons is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all the defensive plays? Shouldn't he be starting? Last I checked that's not happening.

C'mon now, like the coaching staff doesn't make mistakes? This is the same team that started Sean Mahan 16 games last season, the same team that started Cedrick Wilson at wideout over Santonio Holmes. You can even go back further when Burnt Toast Alexander started over Chris Hope for years, or when DeWayne Washington started over Deshae Townsend for all that time. This stuff happens all the time.

[markymarc]

C'mon now, like the coaching staff doesn't make mistakes? This is the same team that started Sean Mahan 16 games last season, the same team that started Cedrick Wilson at wideout over Santonio Holmes. You can even go back further when Burnt Toast Alexander started over Chris Hope for years, or when DeWayne Washington started over Deshae Townsend for all that time. This stuff happens all the time.

That about sums it up for me. The coaching staff doesn't always start the better player and this is obviously the case with Foote starting over Timmons.

[markymarc]

If Timmons is the better player shouldn't he be on the field for all the defensive plays? Shouldn't he be starting? Last I checked that's not happening.

Just because Foote is currently listed as the starter does not mean he is better than Timmons. Like Balls mentioned the coaching staff doesn't always have the better talent starting.

[Coryea]

C'mon now, like the coaching staff doesn't make mistakes? This is the same team that started Sean Mahan 16 games last season, the same team that started Cedrick Wilson at wideout over Santonio Holmes. You can even go back further when Burnt Toast Alexander started over Chris Hope for years, or when DeWayne Washington started over Deshae Townsend for all that time. This stuff happens all the time.

Hope was drafted in 2002, he was starting in 2004. Ced started 12 games when Holmes was a rookie, since then it's been Holmes. Washington I agree, Deshea should've taken over in the 2002 season sometime.

Also this is the same team that started Faneca, Smith, Edwards, Burress, Hampton, Bell, Simmons, Miller all as rookies.

[Vader]

Just because Foote is currently listed as the starter does not mean he is better than Timmons. Like Balls mentioned the coaching staff doesn't always have the better talent starting.

That's your assumption because of what happened the following year but that doesn't make it true. As Tom has pointed out many guys were rookies while learning on the bench while others did start as rookies.

Please tell me the last time the Steelers didn't start their #1 overall draft pick in his 2nd year.

[Balls&YourWord]

Hope was drafted in 2002, he was starting in 2004. Ced started 12 games when Holmes was a rookie, since then it's been Holmes. Washington I agree, Deshea should've taken over in the 2002 season sometime.

Also this is the same team that started Faneca, Smith, Edwards, Burress, Hampton, Bell, Simmons, Miller all as rookies.

Good points there, can't argue with much of that. My main point here really is that for every vet they rightly sit in favor of a promising young player, like a Miller or a Hampton taking over for whomever, there are just as many instances of the talented younger player who could help out the team more in the present having to sit behind the veteran, ala a Deshae Townsend or a Chris Hope. I'd even argue that starting Woodley last year would have made the defense better than having Clark Haggans out there.

And I really think that overall Timmons is the better player than Foote for this team right now, and that he needs to be out there playing. At least he's getting a lot of snaps on third down, but they're basically just using him as as extra defensive back in those situations because of his ability to cover players down the field.

Next week it is going to be even more imperative to get Timmons out there against an offense like Philadelphia that is about as pass heavy an offense the Steelers will see this year. When I look up the word "ugly" in the dictionary it describes it as having to watch Larry Foote try and tackle Brian Westbrook one on one in space. :D But in all honesty, I think Timmons is a lot more suited for playing against their offense than Foote is.

[TWEEK1106]

god, the collective blowing of timmons continues.


i don't hate timmons, but FOOTE NOT TIMMONS is the best all round linbacker (out of those two) right now and that's why he's starting.

get over it.

hopefully timmons will evolve by next year into something that resembles value at the spot he was selected at. other than that i think this argument is at an end.

[Andymisiu]

That's your assumption because of what happened the following year but that doesn't make it true. As Tom has pointed out many guys were rookies while learning on the bench while others did start as rookies.

Please tell me the last time the Steelers didn't start their #1 overall draft pick in his 2nd year.

Vader,

Please try and understand the situation that surrounds the Timmons pick and you will be able to accept his not starting easier.

If a Rookie started in his first or second year it's because we NEEDED him to.

Timmons is not NEEDED to start on this team. He was drafted to take over for Porter who left. However, Harrison filled that role and is doing a pretty good job at it, wouldn't you say?

So, Timmons was moved inside to eventually take over for Foote, but he is also a reserve outside LB'er as well.

Foote is a good player and I think the only thing that is keeping him in the linup is experience. If we can still get miles out of Foote who is a good player, just not great. Than get the miles from him and save the shelf life of Timmons.

Would Timmons be starting at ROLB if Harrsion didn't step in like he did. I think he would be.

So, it's not that Foote is bad, cause he's not bad, he's good. It's not that Timmons is bad, he's not, he's good.

I think it's more to do with the fact that we don't need him to start.

The question is "well, if he's better than Foote than why isn't he starting?" This brings me to this point. If Foote was better than Timmons at pass coverage than he would be "starting" in the nickel formation. If Timmons was better at stopping the run, than he would be "starting" on 1st and 2nd down.

I said it in an earler post that I personaly think that we lose more in pass coverage on 1st and 2nd downs with Foote in the game than we would lose in run coverage with Timmons in the game on 1st and 2nd downs. Buty I don't make those decisions.

The coaching staff is getting what they believe to be the best of both worlds. This is why I say that they are both "starters" in the defense.

So why are you still arguing the point of Foote vs. Timmons? it's not like it's a bad situation for us to be in.

I understand your not happy with the pick and refuse to at least see where I'm coming from on why he got moved inside.

So, really, what do you want?

[Spike]

I agree with TWEEK. Mark your calendars.

[Coryea]

I'm not against Foote starting, he is a solid player, but he is a huge liability in the passing game. Timmons is a quicker, more explosive player. He's a better blitzer and better in coverage than Foote.

[Hines57]

god, the collective blowing of timmons continues.


i don't hate timmons, but FOOTE NOT TIMMONS is the best all round linbacker (out of those two) right now and that's why he's starting.

get over it.

hopefully timmons will evolve by next year into something that resembles value at the spot he was selected at. other than that i think this argument is at an end.
Chirp, chirp, chirp. :D

[Coryea]

i don't hate timmons, but FOOTE NOT TIMMONS is the best all round linbacker (out of those two) right now and that's why he's starting.



I agree with TWEEK. Mark your calendars.

So, I guess it's the same about Nate, he's the best all around WR(of him and Sweed).

[Andymisiu]

I'm still not sold that Timmons can't play as good as Foote in the run game. I'm just more or less giving Foote that one. I also think we should be rushing Timmons more than dropping him back in coverage.

[Hines57]

So, I guess it's the same about Nate, he's the best all around WR(of him and Sweed).
Don't even get me started on Nate.

[Vader]

Vader,

Please try and understand the situation that surrounds the Timmons pick and you will be able to accept his not starting easier.

If a Rookie started in his first or second year it's because we NEEDED him to.

Timmons is not NEEDED to start on this team. He was drafted to take over for Porter who left. However, Harrison filled that role and is doing a pretty good job at it, wouldn't you say?

So, Timmons was moved inside to eventually take over for Foote, but he is also a reserve outside LB'er as well.

Foote is a good player and I think the only thing that is keeping him in the linup is experience. If we can still get miles out of Foote who is a good player, just not great. Than get the miles from him and save the shelf life of Timmons.

Would Timmons be starting at ROLB if Harrsion didn't step in like he did. I think he would be.

So, it's not that Foote is bad, cause he's not bad, he's good. It's not that Timmons is bad, he's not, he's good.

I think it's more to do with the fact that we don't need him to start.

The question is "well, if he's better than Foote than why isn't he starting?" This brings me to this point. If Foote was better than Timmons at pass coverage than he would be "starting" in the nickel formation. If Timmons was better at stopping the run, than he would be "starting" on 1st and 2nd down.

I said it in an earler post that I personaly think that we lose more in pass coverage on 1st and 2nd downs with Foote in the game than we would lose in run coverage with Timmons in the game on 1st and 2nd downs. Buty I don't make those decisions.

The coaching staff is getting what they believe to be the best of both worlds. This is why I say that they are both "starters" in the defense.

So why are you still arguing the point of Foote vs. Timmons? it's not like it's a bad situation for us to be in.

I understand your not happy with the pick and refuse to at least see where I'm coming from on why he got moved inside.

So, really, what do you want?

No reason to write all that to try to avoid the question. A simple "I don't know" would have done fine. Please name me the last #1 draft pick NOT to start his 2nd year.

They are NOT both starters. He is being used as a DB on 3rd downs. BTW don't ask me why I'm still arguing the point when I got the title of the thread from a thread you started when you thought Timmons played a good game. Love to dish it out but can't take it?

I understand exactly where you are coming from but I don't like the 15th OVERALL draft pick not being able to beat out any of our LBers for a starting spot in his 2nd year. It has to do with value. I guess I expect more from 1 of the top 15 players IN THE COUNTRY.

[DaSwitz]

Good points there, can't argue with much of that. My main point here really is that for every vet they rightly sit in favor of a promising young player, like a Miller or a Hampton taking over for whomever, there are just as many instances of the talented younger player who could help out the team more in the present having to sit behind the veteran, ala a Deshae Townsend or a Chris Hope. I'd even argue that starting Woodley last year would have made the defense better than having Clark Haggans out there.

I always find it out that we compare what previous coaching staffs did to what the current coaching staff is doing. There's a new sheriff in town and a lot of new deputies.

[Coryea]

I always find it out that we compare what previous coaching staffs did to what the current coaching staff is doing. There's a new sheriff in town and a lot of new deputies.

While that's true, pretty much every NFL coach will side with the solid veteran player(foote) over the young player with a ton of potential(Timmons).

[Vader]

While that's true, pretty much every NFL coach will side with the solid veteran player(foote) over the young player with a ton of potential(Timmons).

But only if the solid vet is a better player. IF Timmons was better than Foote Tomlin would play him. He let Haggans walk because of Woodley. Yet, somehow our worst LBer (still a good player but not as good as the others) still is able to start and get the vast majority of snaps over Timmons. There is a reason besides the cop-out that the Steelers don't play their young players... which simply isn't true.

[Jitter]

Why should we rush Timmons more? We need his speed in coverage. If he rushes who does that leave to cover the underneath stuff?

Anyways just because a player is faster and more explosive doesnt make him better by any means. Ward is not exactly fast or explosive, but I dont think anyone on here will say that speedster Nate is the better player than Ward. You cant say if Timmons was in the game he would of did this or that, no one has anyway of knowing that. He could of missed an assignment, or tripped and fell during the plays. I dont think any of us are psychic. On paper Timmons appears to be the better match up against the Eagles but we will see. Honestly though I cant see Foote, Timmons, Farrior, Woodley, or Farrior covering Westbrook. I would have troy spy him and have one of the LBs cover the TE.

[Vader]

Why should we rush Timmons more? We need his speed in coverage. If he rushes who does that leave to cover the underneath stuff?

Anyways just because a player is faster and more explosive doesnt make him better by any means. Ward is not exactly fast or explosive, but I dont think anyone on here will say that speedster Nate is the better player than Ward. You cant say if Timmons was in the game he would of did this or that, no one has anyway of knowing that. He could of missed an assignment, or tripped and fell during the plays. I dont think any of us are psychic. On paper Timmons appears to be the better match up against the Eagles but we will see. Honestly though I cant see Foote, Timmons, Farrior, Woodley, or Farrior covering Westbrook. I would have troy spy him and have one of the LBs cover the TE.

You aren't going to cover Westbrook with a Lber. I would put Troy on him.

[Hines57]

On paper Timmons appears to be the better match up against the Eagles but we will see. Honestly though I cant see Foote, Timmons, Farrior, Woodley, or Farrior covering Westbrook. I would have troy spy him and have one of the LBs cover the TE.
Thats what I'm thinking the coaches will do for this game. Put Troy on the line of scrimmage to cover Westbrook and maybe even play him as a linebacker so we arent exposed deep.

[Andymisiu]

Why should we rush Timmons more? We need his speed in coverage. If he rushes who does that leave to cover the underneath stuff?

Anyways just because a player is faster and more explosive doesnt make him better by any means. Ward is not exactly fast or explosive, but I dont think anyone on here will say that speedster Nate is the better player than Ward. You cant say if Timmons was in the game he would of did this or that, no one has anyway of knowing that. He could of missed an assignment, or tripped and fell during the plays. I dont think any of us are psychic. On paper Timmons appears to be the better match up against the Eagles but we will see. Honestly though I cant see Foote, Timmons, Farrior, Woodley, or Farrior covering Westbrook. I would have troy spy him and have one of the LBs cover the TE.

I mean that Timmons should be used on earlier downs to blitz and not just as a cover LB in the nickel.

[Andymisiu]

Give it time Vader and you'll be wearing a Timmons jersey. I'll let him finish my argument and then the thread "where are the Timmons haters now?" will be in bold black letters again.

I guess some players take a little longer to earn there respect.

[topseed]

McNabb will eat Foote alive with the short passing game if Larry is in there on early downs; it doesn't matter whom he'll be trying to cover. Foote can't stay with any wideout, he sure as hell can't cover Westbrook, and LJ Smith will have a field day in his zone.

I agree with moving Polamalu closer to the line of scrimmage to help try to combat this, or putting Timmons in the game more often. Or both.

[Hines57]

I guess some players take a little longer to earn there respect.
That's just the thing people are arguing AGAINST you. Timmons hasn't earned shit yet.When he clearly is the better player at that position he will be starting and this won't be an argument. We all expect that to happen soon, but we all also expected Anthony Smith to take Ryan Clark's job. You better be careful what you wish for sometimes.

[Andymisiu]

That's just the thing people are arguing AGAINST you. Timmons hasn't earned shit yet.When he clearly is the better player at that position he will be starting and this won't be an argument. We all expect that to happen soon, but we all also expected Anthony Smith to take Ryan Clark's job. You better be careful what you wish for sometimes.

and I never said he earned it yet either. I agree that he's gotta prove it in the regular season. My whole argument has been defending the fact that he's not a bumb, bust, or unworthy of the 15th pick, just because he's not a starter on our defense yet. I've also defended the move to move him inside as not being due to his lack of skill at outside LB'r but rather the emergence of Harrison.That's the difference. I've said he has a better upside than Foote but I haven't said that he is currently better than Foote. I haven't bashed Foote, I've stated that he's a good player. I've stated that I think they are both starters being used the correct way. Others are stating that if he's not the starter this year than he's a bust. Others have stated that he must suck because he was moved inside. I think people should back off of Timmons and let him do what he's going to do and be an assett to our football team. He will be the starter eventually and for whatever reason he's not starting now, it's not becuse he sucks, or is stupid, it's because we're getting maximum use out of our players in the situations we feel there best used in.

My personal opinion of Timmons is that he is better than Foote. Others may disagree with that statement. He has not proven himself to be better than Foote yet, because we've only played two regular season games. I just feel that he is. But whatever your opinions of Timmons are, I don't think you should count him out or say he sucks, or is a bust just because he got beat out by Harrison on the outside and is sitting behind a proven vet on the inside. It's too early and not everyone starts in there second year. He can still be worth his 15th pick and we as a team are not in a rush to figure it out. Our defense is not the easiest to make it on. Just ask McFadden. Not a 1st rounder but still seems to have the skill set to be the "starter".

But we are still a number one defense with our old vets in there playing together and the young guys waiting there turn.

It works for me and the 2-0 start says it's working for the Steelers too.

[Idioteque]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80ad06dd

The 15 second mark.

you could have warned us. i cringed when i saw that.

[TWEEK1106]

I'm not against Foote starting, he is a solid player, but he is a huge liability in the passing game. Timmons is a quicker, more explosive player. He's a better blitzer and better in coverage than Foote.

Coryea! i expect better of you!

IF he were a "huge liability" in the passing game and timmons was truly that much more "quicker, (and) more explosive" than Foote then HE WOULD BE STARTING!

and to all the people that consistently tout him over foote and express increduality at foote being named starter i ask you this......

are you telling me that Dick LeBeau dosen't know what he's talking about? are you telling me that Dick LeBeau dosen't know how to correctly judge talent? or that he dosen't know how that talent fits into the scheme he's trying to incorporate? are you arrogant and pompus enough to think that YOU know better than him?

So, I guess it's the same about Nate, he's the best all around WR(of him and Sweed).


YES!

at this time he is! and that's why nate is starting!

do you all really believe that coaches sit the players that bring more to the game?

:confused:

[BillvinCowbert]

you could have warned us. i cringed when i saw that.

That there is why Timmons can't play over Foote. He doesn't have his veteran "know how" yet, he would have overrun that play and it would have turned into a big gain. Foote may not make the "exciting" play, but he's always rock solid on plays like this.

[Staxx]

You mean like when the coaches had Ben at 3rd string as a rookie behind the immortal Maddox and Batch?

You mean all the years Deshea sat on the bench behind the mediocre and declining Chad Scott and Dewayne Washington ?

You mean like when Hines Ward was playing behind Troy Edwards and Wil Blackwell?

Coaches OFTEN make personnel errors and play the inferior veteran, they play the safe player under the guise they know the system and are less likely to make errors. I prefer letting the young talent learn early on and let them grow as the season progresses.

[Vader]

You mean like when the coaches had Ben at 3rd string as a rookie behind the immortal Maddox and Batch?

You mean all the years Deshea sat on the bench behind the mediocre and declining Chad Scott and Dewayne Washington ?

You mean like when Hines Ward was playing behind Troy Edwards and Wil Blackwell?

Coaches OFTEN make personnel errors and play the inferior veteran, they play the safe player under the guise they know the system and are less likely to make errors. I prefer letting the young talent learn early on and let them grow as the season progresses.

I enjoyed Ben's great rookie season as much as anybody but Bettis even said he looked like a deer in headlights. The defense and great running game really helped him. Yes, he should have been behind Maddox.

You are also assuming that Deshea was always a great player and that the coaches liked the vets. But you don't know that. Maybe it took years for it to click with Deshea? Maybe if he was thrown out there he would have failed and never developed?

Fans OFTEN believe that because player X is great today that he has always been great. That just isn't the case most of the time.

[esteban13]

Foote stinks.

Simple, elegant .....and true. Foote had a decent game, Timmons may be capable of outstanding games. He needs to be out there more. I was hoping the Cowher school of thought (no one plays until after their third season!!!) would have left with him, apparently not.

[Coryea]

I was hoping the Cowher school of thought (no one plays until after their third season!!!) would have left with him, apparently not.

Ummmm, Searcy, Kirkland, Brown, Bruener, CJ, Faneca, Marvel, Hampton, Burress, Edwards, Bell, Simmons, Kreider, Porter, Troy, Miller, Ben says you haven't paid much attention over the years.

Coaches don't always play the best player, and they don't always know who the best player is until that player gets a chance to start, hell the smartest biggest genius coach in the history of football had Lord Brady as his #3 QB heading into the 2001 season.

[Supersteeler]

People that think Foote stinks make me laugh. Have you watched any games this year?

[Coryea]

I don't think Foote stinks at all, I think he's a solid football player, but I think Timmons can raise the level of play at that position and give us more options out of our base defense.

[Andymisiu]

OK.

as stated by the coaching staff. Timmons will be starting at inside linebacker in the nickel formation plus he will be seeing time in the base 3-4 formation.

This tells me a couple things about how the coaching staff feels about the situation.

a) They like Foote better in the early down situations (running situations)
b) They like Timmons better in passing situations and long yardage situations.

I don't see Farrior, Harrison, or Woodley giving up a whole lot of playing time. The coaches didin't even mention that possibility.

I think we can all agree that Foote is a decent, solid player. He may not be flashy but he is a grizzled vet, correct? I think we can all agree that Timmos has shown flashes of why they drafted him in the first round and is able to stick with routes better, correct?

If anyone of these two linbackers were the better "all around" player than he would be in for all the snaps. This is why I say they are both playing the same position with equal importance between them both. I know none of you want to here that there both the starter, but that's my opinion.

Has Tomlin said "I don't care who runs out of the tunnel".

I think the fact that the coaching staff as publicly stated that he will be seeing time in the base 3-4 and as the starting ILB in the nickel formation shows that the staff is growing with increased confidence in Timmons.

Anytime a player is tacking snaps away from the "starter" it shows that they are confident in what they both can do. I think it's only a matter of time before Timmons takes all the snaps from Foote but he has to continue to play well in the regular season.

I'm a Steeler fan, and I don't care what player is on the field as long as he's doing a good job. There is really nothing to complain about when we're winning. If you wanna knock Timmons because he's not the "starter" than go right ahead, but we're winning. If you wanna knock Foote for being on the field, then go ahead, but we're winning. Everything will fall into place the way it's supposed too.

If we were getting shredded on "D" and run all over and the staff didn't make changes in the lineup to fix the situation. Then I would be worried about Timmons worth or value. But the fact is, we are winning and the staff seems to have equal confidence in both players, this is why they are sharing snaps at the position.

I will publicly state on this site that I do not agree with the Timmons supporters who believe Foote sucks. I think Foote is a solid player on our team. However, I do believe that Timmons will eventually be starting at the position and will be better than Foote. Timmons will prove his worth at the 15th pick in the 2007 draft.

I hope we're all pulling for that as Steeler fans.

[Staxx]

No Ben should never have been behind Maddox I could care less about the deer in the headlights look in the HUDDLE, he performed great when the play actually started. I Maddox was better than Ben as you say why didn't he ever post Ben like QB ratings as he had the same great running game and defense at his disposal ?

Townsend has never been a great player, he has always been what he is today, a steady, reliable an d player an asset in coverage something Scott and Washington were not the last 2 years before Deshea became a starter.

[markymarc]

That's your assumption because of what happened the following year but that doesn't make it true. As Tom has pointed out many guys were rookies while learning on the bench while others did start as rookies.

Please tell me the last time the Steelers didn't start their #1 overall draft pick in his 2nd year.

Yes there have been times where rookies did start, but there were also times the rookies didn't start and had to sit behind someone else. If that means Timmons has to learn by playing in certain defensive packages so be it. But hey Foote is the starter for now and no way in hell do I think he is the better player or even close to the talent Timmons has.

[markymarc]

I will publicly state on this site that I do not agree with the Timmons supporters who believe Foote sucks. I think Foote is a solid player on our team. However, I do believe that Timmons will eventually be starting at the position and will be better than Foote. Timmons will prove his worth at the 15th pick in the 2007 draft.

Here is my thing with Foote. This guy has been a starter for what the past 3 years. Now as a wiley vet on an NFL team wouldn't you think that you should focus on areas that you may not be so good at. Then why is it that Foote still can have issues shedding blocks, tackling in the open field and of course coverage. Those are weaknesses you would expect from a rookie or young player, not someone who has been starting at least 3 years now. I can live with Foote starting, but at some point Timmons has to be given the chance to show what he can do playing all 3 downs.

[Vader]

Yes there have been times where rookies did start, but there were also times the rookies didn't start and had to sit behind someone else.

Since Andy can't answer my question then maybe you can answer it. Please tell me the last time a 1st round draft pick for the Steelers didn't start by his 2nd year. Timmons isn't a rookie so that isn't the issue now. We're talking about a 2nd year player.

[Staxx]

Vader, why don't you answer my post which refutes your silly assertion that Maddox was better than Ben in his 1st year.

[markymarc]

Since Andy can't answer my question then maybe you can answer it. Please tell me the last time a 1st round draft pick for the Steelers didn't start by his 2nd year. Timmons isn't a rookie so that isn't the issue now. We're talking about a 2nd year player.

That is a good question Vader and unfortunately I can't answer it. Yes Timmons may not be starting in his 2nd year, but at least he is seeing the field more now. Listen I never said Foote is dreadful and bad for this defense, but I do think he has flaws in his game which is unfortunate considering he has been starting for a few years now. I think Timmons can do a lot of good things on the field, but until he becomes the starter this topic could be debated for awhile.

[Andymisiu]

Since Andy can't answer my question then maybe you can answer it. Please tell me the last time a 1st round draft pick for the Steelers didn't start by his 2nd year. Timmons isn't a rookie so that isn't the issue now. We're talking about a 2nd year player.

I don't think your question serves a purpose Vader. What does the situation that surrounds the Timmons pick have anything to do with past first rounders. If you ask me, it's a pretty unique situation. But to answer your quesion, I believe it was Jemain Stephens.

Could you please reclarify the point you are trying to make.

[Balls&YourWord]

]I enjoyed Ben's great rookie season as much as anybody but Bettis even said he looked like a deer in headlights. The defense and great running game really helped him. Yes, he should have been behind Maddox. [/b]

You are also assuming that Deshea was always a great player and that the coaches liked the vets. But you don't know that. Maybe it took years for it to click with Deshea? Maybe if he was thrown out there he would have failed and never developed?

Fans OFTEN believe that because player X is great today that he has always been great. That just isn't the case most of the time.

Couldn't disagree with you more, I think those are some seriously naive comments.

There is no way in hell that '04 team wins 14 straight games with Tommy Maddox at QB, the same Maddox who led that team to a 6-10 season the year before, struggled against a terrible Oakland team at home the first week, then got completely destroyed against Baltimore.

Tommy Maddox was a one year wonder, I appreciate the one year he gave us which was a fun season, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a one year wonder who was through after that. For the Steelers sake, luckily the superior player was forced into action early on in that season. Sorry, you're dead wrong.

And are you trying to argue that the coaching staff never makes mistakes when judging talented young players against veteran starters? Do you really believe that if LaMarr Woodley started last year the defense would have been worse off with him rather than Clark Haggans? Do you stoutly defend them that much? As much crap as this team gets in other areas, you give them a 100% clean pass on judging their own talent? Surely not.

And from what I remember there was always a lot of talk about how good Townsend looked when he played, I know I noticed it. Considering the Steelers had the worst secondary in the league at that point, just embarrassingly bad with Scott, Washington, and Burnt Alexander, I don't see how it could have been much worse. I don't think Townsend and Chris Hope made such a huge drastic improvement in their play that put them over the veterans in front of them, not at all. It was more Cowher finally having to give in considering the veterans had been that bad. I'm not saying Lawrence Timmons is going to be a superstar, but overall I think he's the more talented linebacker and would make this defense better, not worse, with him out there more. Why this is such a criminal thought I don't know, nor can I explain the amount of love for Foote, who if you did a fan straw poll would be the weakest link in the entire starting defensive unit. This defense takes a hit if Aaron Smith or Troy Polamalu or James Farrior or Casey Hampton and other goes down. Not Larry Foote.

If the Steelers were 0-2 and the defense had looked like swiss cheese, you can damn sure bet a vast majority of this board would be calling for Timmons, because Larry Foote's deficiencies would be more pronounced. And that's the way it goes for good veteran teams with a great core, it's hard to make a case for any of them being replaced because the whole is fine. And that was the case in the past as well, it's tough to pull out the weak links when the chain is still strong as a whole. It's only until the defense starts to show those holes and deficiencies is any action usually taken. It's hard to make the case that a guy should be benched even though he's playing on currently one of the top defenses in the entire NFL. That's a hard argument to make, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a wrong or bad argument to make either.

[Vader]

I don't think your question serves a purpose Vader. What does the situation that surrounds the Timmons pick have anything to do with past first rounders. If you ask me, it's a pretty unique situation. But to answer your quesion, I believe it was Jemain Stephens.

Could you please reclarify the point you are trying to make.

The point I'm making is simply. You and several others claim that the Steelers won't play their rookies and young players and stick to the old vets. IF that is why Timmons isn't starting then we need to see if that is historically true. Jamain Stephens started 10 games his 2nd season.

[topseed]

The point I'm making is simply. You and several others claim that the Steelers won't play their rookies and young players and stick to the old vets. IF that is why Timmons isn't starting then we need to see if that is historically true. Jamain Stephens started 10 games his 2nd season.

History doesn't mean shit in this case, because the only sample under Tomlin is Timmons. What Cowher did or didn't do with his first-round picks in their second year doesn't apply anymore.

[Vader]

Couldn't disagree with you more, I think those are some seriously naive comments.

The only thing naive is believing it's a great idea to start a rookie QB when you have two vets on the team. Ben had a lot of difficulties when he arrived. So much so that Faneca sure didn't want him to start. How many QBs come in as a rookie and win like Ben did? Ben is the exception NOT the rule. Nobody knew, including yourself, how good he would play and how well the team would play around him.

BTW by the time the playoffs rolled around Ben was done. He played terribly and some were even calling for Maddox to go in. He almost lost the Jets game and did lose the pats* game.

There is no way in hell that '04 team wins 14 straight games with Tommy Maddox at QB, the same Maddox who led that team to a 6-10 season the year before, struggled against a terrible Oakland team at home the first week, then got completely destroyed against Baltimore.

Tommy Maddox was a one year wonder, I appreciate the one year he gave us which was a fun season, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a one year wonder who was through after that. For the Steelers sake, luckily the superior player was forced into action early on in that season. Sorry, you're dead wrong.

No you are dead wrong. Even if they didn't win 14 straight games that isn't why they play the game. They play to win the SB. I'd rather have one more losing season and have Ben's head on straight than risk the possibility of him turning into David Clinger, David Carr, Akili Smith, ETC... We were lucky Ben was able to handle it. Again the exception NOT the rule.

And are you trying to argue that the coaching staff never makes mistakes when judging talented young players against veteran starters? Do you really believe that if LaMarr Woodley started last year the defense would have been worse off with him rather than Clark Haggans? Do you stoutly defend them that much? As much crap as this team gets in other areas, you give them a 100% clean pass on judging their own talent? Surely not.

Are you trying to argue that the coaching staff always makes mistakes when judging talented young players against veteran starters? That's called a strawman. That's why I asked the question when was the last time a 1st round pick didn't start in his second year. You people act as if the Steelers have a stock pile of young talent that they refuse to play. Which isn't true. I guess they did know A. Smith wasn't as good as Clark even though most people on this board wanted Smith.

I'm not saying Lawrence Timmons is going to be a superstar, but overall I think he's the more talented linebacker and would make this defense better, not worse, with him out there more. Why this is such a criminal thought I don't know, nor can I explain the amount of love for Foote, who if you did a fan straw poll would be the weakest link in the entire starting defensive unit. This defense takes a hit if Aaron Smith or Troy Polamalu or James Farrior or Casey Hampton and other goes down. Not Larry Foote.

So you believe that LeBeau is keeping a more talented Timmons off the field because he doesn't want to play his best player??? Boy your a smart one. There isn't a lot of love for Foote but that is another strawman you people throw out. But answer me this, if Foote is so bad why can't Timmons beat him out? Why is Foote even on the team if he is so bad?

If the Steelers were 0-2 and the defense had looked like swiss cheese, you can damn sure bet a vast majority of this board would be calling for Timmons, because Larry Foote's deficiencies would be more pronounced. And that's the way it goes for good veteran teams with a great core, it's hard to make a case for any of them being replaced because the whole is fine. And that was the case in the past as well, it's tough to pull out the weak links when the chain is still strong as a whole. It's only until the defense starts to show those holes and deficiencies is any action usually taken. It's hard to make the case that a guy should be benched even though he's playing on currently one of the top defenses in the entire NFL. That's a hard argument to make, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a wrong or bad argument to make either.

IF IF IF. They would be calling for Timmons but we don't go by IFs. The defense has given up 23 points in two games. Again you assume (because you have no facts) that Timmons is so great if the coaches could just see what you see. The FACT is that something is keeping Timmons off the field. Against the clowns almost totally off the field. So IF the rest of the defense sucked that would make everybody aware of how bad Foote sucks? Brilliant.

[Vader]

History doesn't mean shit in this case, because the only sample under Tomlin is Timmons. What Cowher did or didn't do with his first-round picks in their second year doesn't apply anymore.

Sorry but that isn't the argument. You can't on one hand say "the Steelers never play their young guys" and then cover it by saying "that's history and doesn't mean anything".

[BillvinCowbert]

Bottom line....

The reason you STICK with a guy like Foote is to have a guy that makes the high-percentage play. You want him to maintain his gaps, not overrun plays, know his assignment, make the solid tackle. While Timmons may be the better athlete, the thought is that he'll make too many "mistakes"...

Unfortunately, even the grizzled veteran still makes lots of mistakes (like the huge overrun of the play linked earlier). And he doesn't have the athletic ability to recover. Larry Foote is Just A Guy. He won't kill you if he's starting, but he's better served as a top backup. He's Courtney Hawkins and Najeh Davenport and Charlie Batch and Brent Alexander, but the LB version.

[Vader]

Bottom line....

The reason you STICK with a guy like Foote is to have a guy that makes the high-percentage play. You want him to maintain his gaps, not overrun plays, know his assignment, make the solid tackle. While Timmons may be the better athlete, the thought is that he'll make too many "mistakes"...

Unfortunately, even the grizzled veteran still makes lots of mistakes (like the huge overrun of the play linked earlier). And he doesn't have the athletic ability to recover. Larry Foote is Just A Guy. He won't kill you if he's starting, but he's better served as a top backup. He's Courtney Hawkins and Najeh Davenport and Charlie Batch and Brent Alexander, but the LB version.

All players make some mistakes. Troy got beat as well on that play as did several other players. I just don't believe the Steelers would keep their 2nd year #1 draft pick sitting on the bench if he showed them in practice that he could do the job. It just doesn't make sense.

[t-man]

All players make some mistakes. Troy got beat as well on that play as did several other players. I just don't believe the Steelers would keep their 2nd year #1 draft pick sitting on the bench if he showed them in practice that he could do the job. It just doesn't make sense.

Harrison behind Porter. Explain that one (Harrison had a boatload of practice time since he'd been around quite a while) and yet he didn't start. And when Peezy finally went bye bye, look what he did. YOU explain to ME why the coaches made that decision, and then we can talk about your argument. You have two options-

1- Harrison sucked right up till last year, then he became great

2- Harrison was at least equal to Porter, but since Peezy was the starter, Harrison didn't get the job till Peezy was bye bye.

Those are really the only two options, and I'd be shocked if you could convince anyone here of number 1 after what we saw last year and to start this year.

Joe

[TWEEK1106]

Harrison behind Porter. Explain that one (Harrison had a boatload of practice time since he'd been around quite a while) and yet he didn't start. And when Peezy finally went bye bye, look what he did. YOU explain to ME why the coaches made that decision, and then we can talk about your argument. You have two options-

1- Harrison sucked right up till last year, then he became great

2- Harrison was at least equal to Porter, but since Peezy was the starter, Harrison didn't get the job till Peezy was bye bye.

Those are really the only two options, and I'd be shocked if you could convince anyone here of number 1 after what we saw last year and to start this year.

Joe

well, get ready to be shocked (hopefully). the simple answer is Harrison wasn't as good of a player when he was drafted as he is now. he was the type of player that needed time to develope and we had a Pro Bowler in front of him that i'm sure HELPED him develope into the player he is.


some people come into the league and light it up right away (Woodley), and some come in and need some time to turn the athletisism and explosiveness that they dominated with in college into the dependable mature players that excel in the NFL (Timmons, hopefully) because they can't just be athletic and win (everyone in the NFL is pretty fast and explosive).

[markymarc]

All players make some mistakes. Troy got beat as well on that play as did several other players. I just don't believe the Steelers would keep their 2nd year #1 draft pick sitting on the bench if he showed them in practice that he could do the job. It just doesn't make sense.

Yes there may have been several players that didn't tackle the RB, but Foote was the first person there and didn't even get close to tackling the RB. By the way, Foote makes mistakes every game he plays in. You can throw Troy in missing the tackle on the Brownies RB, but let's not forget he is also going to make more special plays that Foote can. Foote has been starting for awhile now and still has major flaws in his game. He has no ceiling. I have yet to see Foote make any improvements with his weaknesses (still can have issues shedding blocks, covering and making tackles in the open field).

[Balls&YourWord]

The only thing naive is believing it's a great idea to start a rookie QB when you have two vets on the team. Ben had a lot of difficulties when he arrived. So much so that Faneca sure didn't want him to start. How many QBs come in as a rookie and win like Ben did? Ben is the exception NOT the rule. Nobody knew, including yourself, how good he would play and how well the team would play around him.

BTW by the time the playoffs rolled around Ben was done. He played terribly and some were even calling for Maddox to go in. He almost lost the Jets game and did lose the pats* game.



No you are dead wrong. Even if they didn't win 14 straight games that isn't why they play the game. They play to win the SB. I'd rather have one more losing season and have Ben's head on straight than risk the possibility of him turning into David Clinger, David Carr, Akili Smith, ETC... We were lucky Ben was able to handle it. Again the exception NOT the rule.



Are you trying to argue that the coaching staff always makes mistakes when judging talented young players against veteran starters? That's called a strawman. That's why I asked the question when was the last time a 1st round pick didn't start in his second year. You people act as if the Steelers have a stock pile of young talent that they refuse to play. Which isn't true. I guess they did know A. Smith wasn't as good as Clark even though most people on this board wanted Smith.



So you believe that LeBeau is keeping a more talented Timmons off the field because he doesn't want to play his best player??? Boy your a smart one. There isn't a lot of love for Foote but that is another strawman you people throw out. But answer me this, if Foote is so bad why can't Timmons beat him out? Why is Foote even on the team if he is so bad?



IF IF IF. They would be calling for Timmons but we don't go by IFs. The defense has given up 23 points in two games. Again you assume (because you have no facts) that Timmons is so great if the coaches could just see what you see. The FACT is that something is keeping Timmons off the field. Against the clowns almost totally off the field. So IF the rest of the defense sucked that would make everybody aware of how bad Foote sucks? Brilliant.

Your wife must beat you, what an asshole lol.

Yeah, Ben fell apart at the end of the year his rookie season, but they would have never been in that position with Maddox and you know it. And Ben wouldn't have been nearly as ready as he was in '05 had Maddox played all of '04, and I don't think he'd certainly been ready to take the team on a playoff run and win the SB. So keep complaining about how Maddox should have started those playoff games even though we'd never gotten one of the thumb with Maddox under center. Jeez...

As for the rest of this, I'll say this and this is what I've said about Foote for years. He's a capable starter who is too slow and undersized to ever be an impact player on this defense. His deficiencies are masked playing in a great system and on an outstanding defense. He is a weak link who's only benefit is that he's smart enough not to be in too many negative plays, even though he still finds himself in them when he's one on one with an opposing player. He's weak at the point of attack, he's slow, and he's a terrible blitzer.

I think Lawrence Timmons is the better talent and the better player. I don't feel bad about him sitting the bench when talented players like Chris Hope, Deshae Townsend, and others rode the bench for years and it was only until the veterans in front of them began to play at such a terrible level were they inserted into the starting lineup. Foote has not done that yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't happen.

I'm always looking to upgrade this team. I don't buy into that whole "Well, you can't have 11 pro bowlers running around out there". I'm ALWAYS concerned with finding ways to improve this team. Larry Foote is the weakest player at his position on the whole defense, and we've got a first round pick who is far more fast and athletic than him sitting behind the bench. Granted, just because he's faster and more athletic doesn't make him a better football player, but my whole point is that Foote is the weak link, and if you remove him the chain is still going to be strong. I'd much rather have Timmons out there learning on the job and playing alongside that defense than a known weak commodity like Foote out there. And from what I've seen so far from Timmons, I think right now is the better football player and he will undoubtedly be the better football player in the future as well.

[topseed]

Sorry but that isn't the argument. You can't on one hand say "the Steelers never play their young guys" and then cover it by saying "that's history and doesn't mean anything".

I never personally argued it both ways.

You, however, by the same token, are trying to say "the Steelers always start first-round picks in their second year" to prove that Foote is indeed the better player. Fact is, because Tomlin is now the coach, we don't really know for sure why Timmons is on the bench. Maybe as a younger head man, Tomlin is afraid to step on the toes of his veteran starters. Maybe he and Timmons have had some kind of fallout behind the scenes. Maybe he wants to work Timmons in gradually to the starting position. Maybe Foote truly remains superior at this point, at least against the run. But no matter what the reason is, you can't use historical data under Cowher to argue against Timmons at this point.

[Andymisiu]

Lets put it like this.

Foote 10 tackles 5 solo 5 asst 0sacks
Timmons 6 tackes 5 solo 1 asst 0 sacks

Who's gotten the majority of the snaps? who's been in the game? who has been more productive with there playing time? I think it's plain to see.

Do I think Timmons would be more productive than Foote if given the opportunity? your damn right I do.

[Coryea]

Lets put it like this.

Foote 10 tackles 5 solo 5 asst 0sacks
Timmons 6 tackes 5 solo 1 asst 0 sacks

Who's gotten the majority of the snaps? who's been in the game? who has been more productive with there playing time? I think it's plain to see.

Do I think Timmons would be more productive than Foote if given the opportunity? your damn right I do.

I agree, I'm one of the ones that think Timmons should be starting over Foote, but to be fair how many of Timmons tackles came on special teams?

[Andymisiu]

I agree, I'm one of the ones that think Timmons should be starting over Foote, but to be fair how many of Timmons tackles came on special teams?

I don't know, but your not helping me any ;)

[Coryea]

I don't know, but your not helping me any ;)

LOL, sorry, I didn't think the numbers would be that close since we barely saw Timmons Sunday, that's why I asked.

[Andymisiu]

Vader,

Let me ask you a hypothetical question.

Does Timmons start at ROLB this year if Harrison doesn't show up the way he did last year?

and if that was the case, would this make you happier with the Timmons pick? would you be happier if our Pro Bowler Harrison didn't exist and Timmons was the starting ROLB?

[Vader]

Vader,

Let me ask you a hypothetical question.

Does Timmons start at ROLB this year if Harrison doesn't show up the way he did last year?

and if that was the case, would this make you happier with the Timmons pick? would you be happier if our Pro Bowler Harrison didn't exist and Timmons was the starting ROLB?

Obviously most people on here don't care about anything other than stomping their feet and saying "Timmons should start because I said so!!!"

Tomlin is wrong, LeBeau is wrong, everybody is wrong except the few enlightened ones.

Now to answer your hypothetical question because you couldn't answer my real question. I DON'T KNOW. If Harrison sucked last year maybe they keep Haggans and flip Woodley? It is a silly question because there are so many variables.

Let me ask you a non-hypothetical question. If Timmons is blowing it up at practice do the coaches let him ride the bench if Foote is slow and can't make "special" plays?

[Vader]

I never personally argued it both ways.

You, however, by the same token, are trying to say "the Steelers always start first-round picks in their second year" to prove that Foote is indeed the better player. Fact is, because Tomlin is now the coach, we don't really know for sure why Timmons is on the bench. Maybe as a younger head man, Tomlin is afraid to step on the toes of his veteran starters. Maybe he and Timmons have had some kind of fallout behind the scenes. Maybe he wants to work Timmons in gradually to the starting position. Maybe Foote truly remains superior at this point, at least against the run. But no matter what the reason is, you can't use historical data under Cowher to argue against Timmons at this point.

Why can't I argue using the same time period? The argument being used is that "The Steelers often don't use their young players because they love old vets". Look at the post above your:

I think Lawrence Timmons is the better talent and the better player. I don't feel bad about him sitting the bench when talented players like Chris Hope, Deshae Townsend, and others rode the bench for years and it was only until the veterans in front of them began to play at such a terrible level were they inserted into the starting lineup.

Notice he isn't sticking to your "Tomlin is the coach now" rule. He goes back into Cowher's tenure. IF they don't want to do that then fine. But don't use it to argue against me and then tell me I can't do the exact same thing.