Why all the hate for Jones?

[In Ben We Trust]

I just don't get it....give the man a chance. A ton of NFL people in the know love the pick, including this nugget from Rotoworld:

It's one of the few picks to go according to plan in one of the wildest drafts in recent memory. Jones (6-foot-2, 245) led the nation in sacks (14.5) and tackles for loss (24.5) as a senior, and paced the SEC in forced fumbles (seven). He scared some evaluators with an early-career spinal condition and 4.92 forty time, but he's been cleared medically and his tape is too good to worry much about his straight-line long speed. Jones explodes off the ball and his motor is relentless. Although slightly undersized, Jones is a readymade 3-4 rush 'backer. He's an ideal replacement for James Harrison, and will be an immediate favorite for Defensive Rookie of the Year.

[Lmob0621]

I liked the play where he chased down the Florida kid and stripped the ball from behind to save a big TD and give UGA the big momentum swing. He looked plenty fast enough there.

[silent]

I'll admit I was a hater, but he's a Steeler now, so I am rooting for the man to break through and have an awesome rookie season.

[ExUSAF]

I don't hate the guy personally, just the FO that made him pick 17: A few nuggets from the Rotoworld praise-fest that bear further scrutiny:

"He scared some evaluators with an early-career spinal condition...". BTW, the spinal condition didn't just magically heal itself, he still has spinal stenosis. He was advised by a major college program not to play football again - at the college level. I wonder how this will translate to the rough and tumble from the NFL?

"...and 4.92 forty time..": This is a time for a fast lineman, not an edge rusher, which I assume is what he is expected to be.

"Although slightly undersized...": Translation: Needs to bulk up for the NFL.

Bottom line: With the personnel losses we have had, we needed a starter in the first round. If he has to wait on the bench for a year or two to learn the system and/or get physically ready for the NFL, then we have maybe two good years - unless he is injured. Welcome Huey Richardson II to the team.

[LeXX75]

Why the need for another Jones thread?

[Steelerz99]

While I think he has some upside, I wanted Eifert. I think w/the loss of Wallace/Mendy the uncertainty of Heath, the offense needed another threat. While they can certainly still aquire skill players in the coming rounds, I think Tyler's talent return is much more immediate than Jones. Also, "spinal stenosis"? That to me is much worse than questionable work ethic or failed drug tests. That's just not something that heals. There's preventative measures sure, but for how long? Just seems a bit riskier than it needed to be.

[Ron Burgundy]

Face it, it would be a bitchfest with people rending their garments and sitting in sackcloth and ashes and crying to the heavens no matter who they drafted.
For now, we'll just hope he's the next Lawrence Timmons and not the next Huey Richardson.

[coryea]

the 4.9 is the reason for all the hate. Suggs ran like a 4.84 the year he was drafted. 4.9 is very slow, but it doesn't mean he can't get to the qb.

whoever mentioned losing Mendy is going to hurt the offense, no way. wallace/miller injury yeah, but we won't miss mendy at all.

[mdk02]

Wonder what James Harrison and Lamar Woodley would run in a 40 right now? My guess is about the same or even slower and why does he need to bulk up? Woodley bulked up too much and he can barely move out there it seems. He is very quick off the snap and His job is to get to the QB not cover WRs 20yards downfield.

[bmoritz]

I'm happy with the pick. I would've been fine with Patterson or Trufant as well. I didn't want Eifert at all. Nothing against him, but I think it would've been a wasted pick. We had NO pass rush at all last season, and the game tape doesn't lie, Jones is an outstanding pass rusher.

[far56]

neck issues, we just saw the past 2 years how Harrison's back slowed him down and Jones neck history is scary, eithier the doctors at USC misdiagnosed his injury that forced him to transfer to Georgia where he was cleared, time will tell either USC screwed up or somewhere down the line he starts missing games which for a 1.17 pick we cannot afford to have happen.
This is a big risk Colbert better hope he stays healthy because if he does from what I have seen on tape he will be a terror to mess with off the edge. As well a nickel unit of Woodley Timmons Worlids Jones and eithier Foote/rookie Hood Mclendon and the 4 DB's should be the best unit we have had since 2010.

[Ironman]

I didn't like it at first because I wanted Eifert but then I looked at the game videos and tape and think he could be something special and he seems like a good kid. 14.5 sacks in the SEC in 12 games is dominant.

[Super Dave]

I hate the pick. I don't hate the player.

And when I say pick, I mean the process.

Opportunity is on the clock, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by running up to the podium to turn in your pick like you are the smartest kid in class. Goodell didn't care how fast we turned it in, we still had to wait.

Wait out your time, wait for opportunity in the form of a desperate team to call and then evaluate the offer. If not, turn your pick in with 1 minute to go.

That's just common sense.

I'm offended when our team does not exercise it.

I don't know shit about Jarvis Jones, I assume the Steelers do, I hope he kicks ass. But don't tell me it was the best value at the time when you bum rushed the stage within 15 seconds of being on the clock.

The Steelers shut the door on the opportunity to increase the value of the pick when they needlessly turned in the pick early.

[36and43]

I hate the pick. I don't hate the player.

And when I say pick, I mean the process.

Opportunity is on the clock, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by running up to the podium to turn in your pick like you are the smartest kid in class. Goodell didn't care how fast we turned it in, we still had to wait.

Wait out your time, wait for opportunity in the form of a desperate team to call and then evaluate the offer. If not, turn your pick in with 1 minute to go.

That's just common sense.

I'm offended when our team does not exercise it.

I don't know shit about Jarvis Jones, I assume the Steelers do, I hope he kicks ass. But don't tell me it was the best value at the time when you bum rushed the stage within 15 seconds of being on the clock.

The Steelers shut the door on the opportunity to increase the value of the pick when they needlessly turned in the pick early.

Spot on man! You said it better than I would have so thanks!

[Vader]

the 4.9 is the reason for all the hate. Suggs ran like a 4.84 the year he was drafted. 4.9 is very slow, but it doesn't mean he can't get to the qb.

whoever mentioned losing Mendy is going to hurt the offense, no way. wallace/miller injury yeah, but we won't miss mendy at all.

There is a huge difference however. Suggs can power you off the ball. Jones is slower than Suggs and has no power move... he doesn't have any moves except getting around the edge. I don't hate the guy, I just hate where he was drafted. Everybody talked about Wallace being a one trick pony.. well what the hell is Jones? And Wallace was a 3rd round pick. Maybe Tomlin will call Jones out as such in camp when all he sees is him running around the edge?

This isn't college. LTs in the NFL, even bad ones, can handle a rusher with one move.

[ExUSAF]

Wonder what James Harrison and Lamar Woodley would run in a 40 right now? My guess is about the same or even slower and why does he need to bulk up? Woodley bulked up too much and he can barely move out there it seems. He is very quick off the snap and His job is to get to the QB not cover WRs 20yards downfield.

The better question is what did they run when they were drafted/signed, not where they are years later. You don't get faster as you age. BTW, Woodley didn't "bulk up" - he just got fat.

[lasteel]

The only question is his speed, playing on Right side. Against NFL LT's he may not make it, and isnt a bullrusher. Played on a loaded Georgia defense, not crazy about the pick. Rather had Rhodes, Trufant or Eifert at 17. He doesn't make them faster.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

I'm offended when the Player is tweeting that he is not getting past the Steelers. I'm sorry, but after Tomlin did that shit with Revis, he should have learned his lesson... Our War Room is made of glass. ... it might have been clever if he was a diversion and it was smokescreen, but clearly this was a case of the Steelers and/or JJ just being simpleton(s). I mean shit, even in the medical community we make a rank order list when everyone is interviewing for residency positions, and nobody knows the list except for the top 2 or three people and those top couple pof people making the decision sure as hell don't go around telling people where they are on it... Anyway, I just find that whole tweet from JJ annoying or stupid, especially if he was at the top of the Steelers list

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

As far as spinal stenosis, at the very least he has a narrowed cervical canal... No way somebody kicks him off a team unless he has cord impingement... meaning that at least one disc is touching the cord. Hell, Manning had to get a fusion I presume for canal stenosis. People get degenerative disc disease... if the spinal canal is already congenitally narrowed to some degree, you run out of room very fast. I find this whole stenosis issue strange. I'll have to assume his disc spaces looked well and that he did not have any significant disc disease... I wish him the best and hope he doesn't need a laminectomy and fusion for at least 10 years... hopefully never of course.

[TDX27]

Hopefully, he can put at least 10 pounds on and maintain his current speed (or lack thereof). 245 at 6'2" seems too small.

[The Iron is Steel On]

This guy is exactly what the Steeler Defense needs. Fired up about it.

[lasteel]

Hopefully, he can put at least 10 pounds on and maintain his current speed (or lack thereof). 245 at 6'2" seems too small.

That is my concern. He is a little lean without lower body strength. He isnt a bullrusher..nor around the edge guy. I have my doubts he can be an high impact player.

[nooneuno]

Most complained last year about how this defence was unable to cause turnovers, we get a guy that excelled in this area the last two seasons and all most can do is complain, lol typical.

[SteelerinMD]

I still consider Adams and DeCastro as experienced rookies as they both missed a lot of games due to injuries

[Southern Steeler]

Most complained last year about how this defence was unable to cause turnovers, we get a guy that excelled in this area the last two seasons and all most can do is complain, lol typical.

Like sands thru the hourglass....these are normal days at SteelerNation

[STEELERS R GR8]

From Walterfootball.com:

Jarvis Jones*, OLB, Georgia
Height: 6-2. Weight: 242. Arm: 33.08.
40 Time: 4.9.
Projected Round (2013): Top-25 Pick.
4/24/13: Scouts at the East-West Shrine told WalterFootball.com that Jones would slide on draft day because they believed he would test poorly before the draft and isn't a hard worker in the weight room. The scouts said that watching the game tape, Jones is worthy of being a top draft pick, but they don't believe he will go that high. Jones passed on working out at the Combine.

The scouts predictions were validated at Jones' pro day when he ran the 40 in an ugly time of 4.9-5.0 seconds. NFL.com's Gil Brandt said that he could see Jones falling to the second round. That might be an exaggeration, but him falling to the mid-teens seems likely.

Jones is an elite edge-rusher who also is phenomenal in pursuit. He had 85 tackles, 14.5 sacks, 24.5 tackles for a loss, seven forced fumbles, three passes broken up and one interception in 2012. Jones finished the year strong with two sacks against Nebraska and announced he would skip his final collegiate season to enter the 2013 NFL Draft. Jones led the nation in sacks, tackles for a loss and forced fumbles.

Jones notched two sacks and a forced fumble against Alabama. His sack-fumble was a phenomenal play on which he beat blocks from right tackle D.J. Fluker and running back Eddie Lacy to take down A.J. McCarron. Jones picked up another coverage sack later, but the Crimson Tide had a lot of success running straight at him. It was an ugly game for Jones as a run-defender.

The junior missed the Kentucky game with a knee injury and didn't look the same against South Carolina, but he came back with a vengeance against Florida. Jones turned in a massive performance to push his team to a huge victory over the Gators. He totaled 13 tackles, 4.5 tackles for a loss, three sacks, two forced fumbles and one fumble recovery.

Jones also made the game-saving play with a forced fumble around the Georgia 5-yard line in the final minutes. It was a tremendous outing that illustrated his ability to make big plays in big games.

Jones had a similar showing in Week 2 against Missouri with a game for the ages. He stepped up with huge plays to help lead the Bulldogs to a win. Jones had nine tackles, two sacks, two forced fumbles, a pass batted and an interception returned 21 yards to the goal line. The turnovers he created came late in the game and sealed the win for Georgia.

8/29/12: The USC transfer was a pass-rushing terror last year for the Bulldogs. The sophomore tied for fifth in the nation in sacks with 13.5. He also had 70 tackles with 19.5 tackles for a loss, two passes broken up and two forced fumbles. Jones' season was highlighted with a four-sack game against Florida, but he was held in check against Michigan State in the Outback Bowl.

Jones is an explosive pass-rusher off the edge who is a perfect fit in Georgia's 3-4 defense. His speed and agility make him extremely difficult for tackles to get a hold of. He has a non-stop motor and gives relentless effort.

Jones is best in pursuit in run defense. He isn't particularly stout at the point of attack when runs come directly at him. Even though Jones could use more bulk, he is a very good tackler. He wraps up ball carriers and quarterbacks well. Jones also skillfully goes for strips when hitting quarterbacks. His closing speed is phenomenal as both a run-defender and a pass-rusher.

After leading the SEC in sacks in 2011, Jones won't take anybody by surprise this season and will see plenty of extra attention. The junior should still produce a quality season, and if he does, he could be a high first-round pick next April. If Jones can add 8-10 pounds of muscle for the NFL, that would make him an even better prospect.

[Idioteque]

There's a lot to love about this pick, if Jones is properly placed. I don't think he'd be higher than a third-tier OLB edge rusher, along the lines of a Robert Mathis or Bruce Irvin. He doesn't have the power moves or the bag of tricks of a Suggs. However, I think he fits beautifully inside. Agile, non-stop motor, great tackler, and a Harrisonish nose for creating turnovers. Properly used, Jones is a huge boon to our defense on all levels. Sure hope our crack team of supercoaches scouts him properly, wherever he belongs.

His 40 time sucked. Okay. No kick returns for Jarvis. Anyone interested in the fact he turned in an identical 10-yd shuttle to Aldon Smith? Jones is a phenomenal ILB prospect, with the short-area burst and playmaking abilities Timmons has for 8 plays a yesr.

[GoSteelers]

I like this pick!

[tube city steel]

great pick! he also wanted to be a Steeler!

[Smidrow]

Hopefully, he can put at least 10 pounds on and maintain his current speed (or lack thereof). 245 at 6'2" seems too small.

I can care less what he weighs......This kid is a no brainer and a perfect fit for the Steelers. He played on the other side of the line of scrimmage more than any other defender in easily the best college football conference in the country. His body of work speaks for itself......

[Smidrow]

There's a lot to love about this pick, if Jones is properly placed. I don't think he'd be higher than a third-tier OLB edge rusher, along the lines of a Robert Mathis or Bruce Irvin. He doesn't have the power moves or the bag of tricks of a Suggs. However, I think he fits beautifully inside. Agile, non-stop motor, great tackler, and a Harrisonish nose for creating turnovers. Properly used, Jones is a huge boon to our defense on all levels. Sure hope our crack team of supercoaches scouts him properly, wherever he belongs.

His 40 time sucked. Okay. No kick returns for Jarvis. Anyone interested in the fact he turned in an identical 10-yd shuttle to Aldon Smith? Jones is a phenomenal ILB prospect, with the short-area burst and playmaking abilities Timmons has for 8 plays a yesr.

It is interesting that you elude to the possibilities of Jones playing inside. He does resemble Timmons and former Steeler Chad Brown in terms of skill set.

[SteelShield]

I love how people think they know anything about the draft. It's actually laughable. No one knows shit about any player in the draft. Anyone can be a bust in the first round and any player can be a star from the 6th round. You don't know how a players skills will transfer into the NFL. I just enjoy the highlight films of the players and hope they are able to be something in the NFL. Other than that, unlike others... I don't pretend to know anything about who is a bust and who is not. Getting upset over draft picks is wasted energy.

[Super Dave]

I love how people think they know anything about the draft. It's actually laughable. No one knows shit about any player in the draft. Anyone can be a bust in the first round and any player can be a star from the 6th round. You don't know how a players skills will transfer into the NFL. I just enjoy the highlight films of the players and hope they are able to be something in the NFL. Other than that, unlike others... I don't pretend to know anything about who is a bust and who is not. Getting upset over draft picks is wasted energy.

Engaging in hyperbole and getting upset over others opinions is wasted energy as well.

It's a Steelers message board. Full of assholes and opinions.

[SteelShield]

Engaging in hyperbole and getting upset over others opinions is wasted energy as well.

It's a Steelers message board. Full of assholes and opinions.

Very true Dave, very true.

[Manifesto The Third]

Bad back, not great against the run and poor pro day.

[The Historian]

Hopefully, he can put at least 10 pounds on and maintain his current speed (or lack thereof). 245 at 6'2" seems too small.


He's a pass rusher.

[Punxsutawney]

His 40 time sucked. Okay. No kick returns for Jarvis. Anyone interested in the fact he turned in an identical 10-yd shuttle to Aldon Smith? Jones is a phenomenal ILB prospect, with the short-area burst and playmaking abilities Timmons has for 8 plays a yesr.

After 5 1/2 years, a large portion of the fan base is still upset about Timmons being forced to move inside. There would probably be a mutiny if the same thing happens with Jones.

With that being said, I kind of agree with you, as I'm not convinced that Jones is big or explosive enough to consistently get around NFL OTs.

[titus]

After 5 1/2 years, a large portion of the fan base is still upset about Timmons being forced to move inside. There would probably be a mutiny if the same thing happens with Jones.

With that being said, I kind of agree with you, as I'm not convinced that Jones is big or explosive enough to consistently get around NFL OTs.

What would give you that idea, the fact that he led the SEC in sacks in 2011 (in the SEC) or the fact that he led the nation in 2012 ? (again, while playing in the SEC) .

It is not as if this guy was tearing up the MAC, he had more sacks than Jadevion Clowney, who is widely considered the very best player in college. AND he was hurt for the first part of the year, which halted his production some.

Also, Georgia runs a 3-4 pretty similar to what we do, so he is pretty schooled as a OLB.

[Nocturnus]

Leading the SEC in sacks really doesn't say a whole lot about how a player will perform in the league. Recent SEC sack leaders were Nick Fairley, Eric Norwood, Carlos Dunlap, Wallace Gilberry, Antonio Coleman, Marcus Howard, Greg Hardy, Jamaal Anderson, and Derrick Harvey.

I think you can see what I'm getting at.

[Idioteque]

Leading the SEC in sacks really doesn't say a whole lot about how a player will perform in the league. Recent SEC sack leaders were Nick Fairley, Eric Norwood, Carlos Dunlap, Wallace Gilberry, Antonio Coleman, Marcus Howard, Greg Hardy, Jamaal Anderson, and Derrick Harvey.

I think you can see what I'm getting at.

Some of those guys have been great pros. Jones' pedigree is outstanding - brought in by a top-notch school, then tore apart the nation twice at another one. He wouldn't have had those opportunities had great talent evaluators not brought him in and started him.

You can get sucked in by 40 times in shorts (and if you do, keep in mind his shuttle time, which tells more than a 40 does), or you can ask yourself how fast you feel a guy plays. Jones has physical tools - good first step, nonstop motor, a knack for creating havoc and turnovers. A guy with his motor and determination usually puts those tools to use.

[madinsomniac]

Straight line forty speed is usefull in catching a guy from behind and running away from guys when out front. its vastly overrated in most positions... including LB...

[Jeffro]

I don't hate the guy personally, just the FO that made him pick 17: A few nuggets from the Rotoworld praise-fest that bear further scrutiny:

"He scared some evaluators with an early-career spinal condition...". BTW, the spinal condition didn't just magically heal itself, he still has spinal stenosis. He was advised by a major college program not to play football again - at the college level. I wonder how this will translate to the rough and tumble from the NFL?

"...and 4.92 forty time..": This is a time for a fast lineman, not an edge rusher, which I assume is what he is expected to be.

"Although slightly undersized...": Translation: Needs to bulk up for the NFL.

Bottom line: With the personnel losses we have had, we needed a starter in the first round. If he has to wait on the bench for a year or two to learn the system and/or get physically ready for the NFL, then we have maybe two good years - unless he is injured. Welcome Huey Richardson II to the team.

Most defensive players drafted by the Steelers do not start year one. I can't think of one that has. Even Troy Polamalu played sparingly his rookie season, so what makes you think the Steelers would start anybody on D their Rookie season?


Hopefully, he can put at least 10 pounds on and maintain his current speed (or lack thereof). 245 at 6'2" seems too small.

6'2" is too small?? Woodley is 6' 1" and Harrison is listed generously at 5' 11". So 6'2" not concerned. The guy can play! Trust in the F.O. they are right far more times than they are wrong!

[Nocturnus]

Some of those guys have been great pros.

Could you enlighten me on which of those guys are great pros? Anyways, I don't hate the Jones pick. But there are major concerns with him. His ability to play the run chief among them. Throw in his medical issues and I think it's valid to question the pick.

[TDX27]

Jeffro, I am not concerned about the Jarvis' height. I am concerned about his weight. At that height, he needs another 10 lbs or so while maintaining what speed he has. I believe Woodley and Harrison are over 260 but I could be wrong on that. Jarvis just seems a bit small at that height and some scouts say he will have trouble putting any muscle weight on his frame.

[diver5]

Woodley is to fat and slow right now. The last thing they need is another guy to get to heavy and not be able to move.

[Idioteque]

Could you enlighten me on which of those guys are great pros? Anyways, I don't hate the Jones pick. But there are major concerns with him. His ability to play the run chief among them. Throw in his medical issues and I think it's valid to question the pick.

Um, sure. Dunlap has been a force, with 20 sacks in 38 games, mostly as a 3-4 DE. Hardy broke out with 11 sacks last year. Fairley was utterly dominant last year and is better than his teammate Suh. Anderson was overdrafted but had a decent career as a run defender

[Cope]

Jeffro, I am not concerned about the Jarvis' height. I am concerned about his weight. At that height, he needs another 10 lbs or so while maintaining what speed he has. I believe Woodley and Harrison are over 260 but I could be wrong on that. Jarvis just seems a bit small at that height and some scouts say he will have trouble putting any muscle weight on his frame.

You're killing a guy over 10 fucking pounds??

Send him to Chipotle and throw some nickels in his pockets...

[Nocturnus]

Um, sure. Dunlap has been a force, with 20 sacks in 38 games, mostly as a 3-4 DE. Hardy broke out with 11 sacks last year. Fairley was utterly dominant last year and is better than his teammate Suh. Anderson was overdrafted but had a decent career as a run defender

None of those guys are "great" pros, as you put it. They are specialists and Fairley is not utterly dominant, far from it.

[Southern Steeler]

What will be truly entertaining is if Jarvis Jones gets double digit sacks next year and wins Defensive Rookie of the Year there will STILL be people here stubbornly clinging to the fact that, in some facet only they can see.....he still sucks.

This place is neat.

[Drink IRON City]

As in most cases, time will tell. I wasn't sold on jones, but now that he a STEELER, I'm all behind him.

Salute the nation

[Wingman]

The big knock on this guy is most of his numbers were posted in a couple of games. In college no matter what conference he is not likely facing NFL caliber players. Some things that have been tossed about regarding him were most of his big plays came from someone missing an assignment or him just being unblocked. He does not have the reputation that Harrison had as a workout fiend that was continually trying to get stronger and better and did. This kid also had some medical issues as well and as they say where ther'res smoke the'res fire.

Even taking that into consideration the kid may still be a good pick however one of the two top tight ends might have been more beneficial this year, and considering Millers age and injury drafting his replacement could have been the better move. One other thing to keep in mind regarding this guys speed and strength, our 7th round defensive end project weighs between 310 and 320 and is faster and stronger as well as taller and with longer arms.

My concerns with our first round selection of this guy was he was not the best value on the board in one of our need positions nor was he most likely to play and be an impact player this year. If he works out I think it will be great and I hope he does, and even if it takes him until next year to be a factor it may still be a good pick.

[SteelerAl]

I really hope Clowney leads the SEC in sacks this year. I will totally start a thread proclaiming Clowney to be a epic bust since guys that lead the SEC in sacks never turn out to be good NFL players.

[SteelerAl]

The big knock on this guy is most of his numbers were posted in a couple of games. In college no matter what conference he is not likely facing NFL caliber players. Some things that have been tossed about regarding him were most of his big plays came from someone missing an assignment or him just being unblocked. He does not have the reputation that Harrison had as a workout fiend that was continually trying to get stronger and better and did. This kid also had some medical issues as well and as they say where ther'res smoke the'res fire.

The guy had 28 sacks over the past two seasons. It's just not possible that "most of his numbers were posted in just a couple of games."

[FAB802]

The guy had 28 sacks over the past two seasons. It's just not possible that "most of his numbers were posted in just a couple of games."

For playing in the consensus top conference in the country, that's a lot of missed assignments and shitty coaching he had the pleasure of exploiting too.

[TMC]

The guy had 28 sacks over the past two seasons. It's just not possible that "most of his numbers were posted in just a couple of games."

Not as impossible as you might think. Of his 28 sacks over the two seasons, seven came against Florida (Xavier Nixon-2 games). Seven. That is 25%. He had 2 against Nebraska (2013), two against DJ Fluker, four against Auburn (two games), two against Missouri, two against Mississippi State, and 2.5 against Kentucky. So, in 9 games, he had 19.5 sacks. In the other 17 games, he had 8.5 and that includes games against Coastal Carolina, New Mexico State, Buffalo, Florida Atlantic, and some of the weaker SEC teams.

Of all the OTs he faced that will actually play at the pro level at tackle, he only beat DJ Fluker. The rest of the guys he beat won't be playing on Sundays. And, Fluker is a RT because he lacks quicks for the left side. He needs to be covered by a TE to protect him from speed. Jones beat him with speed to the edge twice.

He is ours now and I hope like hell he develops, but right now I am also hoping like hell that Worilds develops.

[SteelerAl]

Not as impossible as you might think. Of his 28 sacks over the two seasons, seven came against Florida (Xavier Nixon-2 games). Seven. That is 25%. He had 2 against Nebraska (2013), two against DJ Fluker, four against Auburn (two games), two against Missouri, two against Mississippi State, and 2.5 against Kentucky. So, in 9 games, he had 19.5 sacks. In the other 17 games, he had 8.5 and that includes games against Coastal Carolina, New Mexico State, Buffalo, Florida Atlantic, and some of the weaker SEC teams.

Of all the OTs he faced that will actually play at the pro level at tackle, he only beat DJ Fluker. The rest of the guys he beat won't be playing on Sundays. And, Fluker is a RT because he lacks quicks for the left side. He needs to be covered by a TE to protect him from speed. Jones beat him with speed to the edge twice.

He is ours now and I hope like hell he develops, but right now I am also hoping like hell that Worilds develops.

Appreciate the info, TMC. But taking what you wrote at face value, someone could easily conclude "Wow, Jones is a big game player. He killed Georgia's biggest rival (Florida), but he obviously wasn't too amped when playing against scrub teams like Coastal Carolina, Buffalo etc. because he didn't pad his stats against inferior competition.

[TMC]

Appreciate the info, TMC. But taking what you wrote at face value, someone could easily conclude "Wow, Jones is a big game player. He killed Georgia's biggest rival (Florida), but he obviously wasn't too amped when playing against scrub teams like Coastal Carolina, Buffalo etc. because he didn't pad his stats against inferior competition.

You could. Or, you could say he took games off, like Sam Montgomery did. The only difference is, he did not state it. Either way, he did get his in bunches.

[keslerclan]

I don't like the pick of Jones but it's not because he won't turn out to be a decent player. He will be fine. I just would have rather had an impact player CB, TE, WR the way the draft fell to us.

Jones is a high motor guy who largely gets it done with pressure, not sacks. He has sacks but he keeps after the play and adds pressure which has an effect which is more than a TFL.

I am not worried in the least about his 40. Woodley would run about a 5.20 right now. Harrison was never fast or he would have been a BEAST in the middle. He will be fine. He just won't be scoring TDs which is what we need more right now IMO.

[blitzburghv5]

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with his frame or size....he weighs more than Von Miller and is an inch shorter...hes three inches taller than Sam Mills (RIP), Debo and Dumerville ....those guys made several pro bowl between them

[stuntmanmike]

jones will be a great steeler when all is said and done... he's like one of those great race horses don't doesn't look very good on paper but just goes out and competes and wins. not one poster here has said anything about the dude's heart and competitive spirit and that is 90 percent of this game... ask 6th or 7th round picks like tom brady or free agents like james harrison.

[steelerempire]

His only draw back is that he has some kind of disease that narrows the spine. Just hope he's healthy enough to play for the long term.

[TMC]

If you really think that Tom Brady and James Harrison made it because of heart and competitive spirit, you are out of your mind. Harrison is a physical specimen with great power. He has the ability to translate speed to power quickly and plays with great explosion at the point. He has great leverage and is a ferocious hitter. If it was all heart and competitive spirit, Rudy would have been an NFL player. Brady reads defenses like few other QBs. He understands schemes and throws with excellent accuracy. He is a very good field general.

No one is questioning his heart or competitive spirit because he has it to spare. His size is not an issue for me. What is an issue is his lack of raw power at the point. He does not show explosion in his game. He rarely beats better OTs in one on one situations. Athletically, he does not appear to be gifted. It shows in his workout numbers. It shows on the field when he faces better LTs. Again, look at the Alabama game where he faced their LT. He was manhandled. Could not beat him to the edge. Could not redirect back inside. Had no pass rush moves to beat him. Did not disengage. His best weapon was running all the way around the horn or standing back out of his range and trying to run to the football.

Do you really think our secondary will hold on long enough for him to get coverage sacks? Georgia had two safeties drafted and one corner. They also added a handful of front seven players. It is not like Jarvis Jones was carrying that defense. And, since the season ended, his coaches have been talking up Cornelius Washington. They stated he played within the scheme to allow Jones to freelance. That won't happen here. Our OLBs start to freelance, our defense breaks down. Look, hoping Jones is one of those guys that bucks all the numbers and become good, but to blindly think that he is a shoe-in to be a difference maker is a bit of a stretch. They rolled the dice on this one and we all have to hope it turns out.

[keslerclan]

As usual, TMC is right on with his evaluation of the ALA vs. Georgia tape. For the most part, he had little impact on the day. He has very little power and burst and does not get low enough to push.

On the bright side, just about ANY other NFL OLB would have fared the same against this line. It takes a guy like Harrison who is wicked strong to get through or a guy like Woodley (in shape with intact hammys). Some lines will completely shut a guy like Jones out. Some lines obviously will not.

He must get stronger, lower and use his length better IF he's going to be an impact player in the NFL. That is precisely why former DEs make better OLBs in the 3-4 Defense. They are usually much more stout at the point and play with better leverage. He can be trained up to a degree but his "lack of's" will limit his development. I think he will be okay BUT he will not be a force for at least a few seasons. That's why you draft an immediate impact player instead.

That being said, Marvin Lewis was a MUCH better talent at developing/evaluating LB personnel than Butler. Butler's strength is schematics and getting them in the right places.

[Jeffro]

Jeffro, I am not concerned about the Jarvis' height. I am concerned about his weight. At that height, he needs another 10 lbs or so while maintaining what speed he has. I believe Woodley and Harrison are over 260 but I could be wrong on that. Jarvis just seems a bit small at that height and some scouts say he will have trouble putting any muscle weight on his frame.
The scouts you refer to obviously do not remember their own formative years. Most men, especially athletic men, are still filling out their frame into their 20's. Gaining 10 pounds of muscle at his age is not going to be a problem over the next couple of years! Besides, it's what's between the ears that make the difference at this level. IMHO.

[Idioteque]

None of those guys are "great" pros, as you put it. They are specialists and Fairley is not utterly dominant, far from it.

Really? Starters and every-down players.. accomplished sack artists.. threats for double-digit sacks.. and if you're not in on Fairley, I'd love to hear why. When he finally got healthy last season, he was all but unblockable.

[Idioteque]

Not as impossible as you might think. Of his 28 sacks over the two seasons, seven came against Florida (Xavier Nixon-2 games). Seven. That is 25%. He had 2 against Nebraska (2013), two against DJ Fluker, four against Auburn (two games), two against Missouri, two against Mississippi State, and 2.5 against Kentucky. So, in 9 games, he had 19.5 sacks. In the other 17 games, he had 8.5 and that includes games against Coastal Carolina, New Mexico State, Buffalo, Florida Atlantic, and some of the weaker SEC teams.

This describes most pass rushers in the NFL. Sacks almost always come in bunches; rare is the 20-sack guy who got 1.25 per game.

[TMC]

This describes most pass rushers in the NFL. Sacks almost always come in bunches; rare is the 20-sack guy who got 1.25 per game.

Absolutely not true. JJ Watt had 20.5 sacks last year. JJ Watt had 12 games with a sack and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Aldon Smith had 19.5. He had sacks in 10 games, in one game he had 5.5 sacks. In the other 9, he never had more than 2. Von Miller had 18.5 sacks. He had sacks in 12 games and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Clay Matthews had 13 sacks. He got 6 sacks in 2 games and the other seven were spread over 6 games. He missed 4 games with injury. Go back to 2010 when Harrison was healthy, of his 10.5 sacks, he never had more than 2 in a game. Woodley, the same season, never more than 2 sacks, only had 2 twice. The other 6 sacks came in 6 games.

Most great pass rushers are consistent. They rush the passer every week. They do not wait and hope to feast at a buffet.

[Idioteque]

Absolutely not true. JJ Watt had 20.5 sacks last year. JJ Watt had 12 games with a sack and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Aldon Smith had 19.5. He had sacks in 10 games, in one game he had 5.5 sacks. In the other 9, he never had more than 2. Von Miller had 18.5 sacks. He had sacks in 12 games and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Clay Matthews had 13 sacks. He got 6 sacks in 2 games and the other seven were spread over 6 games. He missed 4 games with injury. Go back to 2010 when Harrison was healthy, of his 10.5 sacks, he never had more than 2 in a game. Woodley, the same season, never more than 2 sacks, only had 2 twice. The other 6 sacks came in 6 games.

Most great pass rushers are consistent. They rush the passer every week. They do not wait and hope to feast at a buffet.

Those sound quite similar to Jones' ratios. Aldon Smith didn't record a sack in 38% of hia games, and that's consistent? Do you have similar breakdowns of other recent college pass rushers?

[Got Caught Steelin']

Absolutely not true. JJ Watt had 20.5 sacks last year. JJ Watt had 12 games with a sack and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Aldon Smith had 19.5. He had sacks in 10 games, in one game he had 5.5 sacks. In the other 9, he never had more than 2. Von Miller had 18.5 sacks. He had sacks in 12 games and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Clay Matthews had 13 sacks. He got 6 sacks in 2 games and the other seven were spread over 6 games. He missed 4 games with injury. Go back to 2010 when Harrison was healthy, of his 10.5 sacks, he never had more than 2 in a game. Woodley, the same season, never more than 2 sacks, only had 2 twice. The other 6 sacks came in 6 games.

Most great pass rushers are consistent. They rush the passer every week. They do not wait and hope to feast at a buffet.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I feel it prudent to mention that we have not seen this kid play in OUR system yet. Maybe whatever hitch he has in his getalong was a function of where he played. The raw talent seems to be there...

[Idioteque]

Absolutely not true. JJ Watt had 20.5 sacks last year. JJ Watt had 12 games with a sack and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Aldon Smith had 19.5. He had sacks in 10 games, in one game he had 5.5 sacks. In the other 9, he never had more than 2. Von Miller had 18.5 sacks. He had sacks in 12 games and only twice did he have more than 2 sacks in a game. Clay Matthews had 13 sacks. He got 6 sacks in 2 games and the other seven were spread over 6 games. He missed 4 games with injury. Go back to 2010 when Harrison was healthy, of his 10.5 sacks, he never had more than 2 in a game. Woodley, the same season, never more than 2 sacks, only had 2 twice. The other 6 sacks came in 6 games.

Most great pass rushers are consistent. They rush the passer every week. They do not wait and hope to feast at a buffet.

I've done some research on recent college pass rushers.

Chandler Jones, Illinois - sackless in 24 of 32 games (75%); if you'd like to narrow this one down to his final two years at school, he went sackless in 14 of his final 20 games (70%)

J.J. Watt, Wisconsin - sackless in 15 of 25 games (60%) as a defensive player, spread evenly with 8 sackless games as a junior and 7 as a senior

Jason Pierre-Paul, South Florida - sackless in 7 of 13 games (53.8%); combined stats vs. Wofford, Western Kentucky, and Charleston Southern: 3 solos, 3 assists, 0 sacks, 1.5 TFL

Von Miller, Texas A&M - sackless in 22 of 45 games (49%); improved to only 7 of 25 (28%) in his final two seasons, but sackless vs. Stephen F. Austin, Louisiana Tech, Florida International, and Kansas, all as a senior

Brian Orakpo, Texas - sackless in 13 of 29 games (44.8%); I did not include his freshman season, in which he was apparently not often used as a pass rusher

Jarvis Jones, Georgia - sackless in 11 of 26 games (42.3%) at Georgia

Aldon Smith, Missouri - sackless in 6 of 17 games (35.2%); combined stats vs. Furman, Iowa State, and McNeese State: 4 solos, 5 assists, 0 sacks, 0 TFL

Your post was very thoughtful and considered a lot of factors, but it certainly doesn't look like Jarvis was an inconsistent or "flip the switch" type of player. Hard to say he didn't bother to show up against subpar competition: against Buffalo, Vanderbilt, and Auburn last season, he combined for 19 tackles, 4.5 sacks, and 7.5 TFL. Hard to say he didn't answer the bell against big competition: he absolutely dominated Alabama, Florida (twice), Mississippi State, and Nebraska.

Was he dominant in every game? No way. But neither were the All-Pro types I tracked above - all of whom were standouts in college. Jason Pierre-Paul's second-to-last game totaled one assisted tackle and no other stats, against a UConn tackle who's probably moved on to find his life's work.

That's not to say you're way off base here. Jones is not an elite pass rusher; his absurd collegiate production overinflates his actual skill (just not necessarily his value). A lot of his dominance came from motor and instinct, and as much as I understand the NEED for talent and athleticism, I'm not going to turn up my nose at a guy like that on this slipping defense. Furthermore, you were analytical in your post, which I appreciate. In fact, perhaps you can rebut the findings I've just presented. We're in some agreement on Jarvis; neither of us think he's headed for James Harrison territory as an edge rusher. Problem is, the narrative on this board is that his stumbled 40 time PROVES that he's Clark Haggans and is devoid of athleticism and skill. He has plenty; anyone with eyeballs can see that he plays significantly faster than his 40 time.

This was a very high-floor pick in a draft filled with m'eh floors (and ceilings). For anyone to say that a healthy Jarvis Jones doesn't appear to bring significant (not Watt-esque, but significant) positives to our defense is silly.

[CorpusDsteelers]

I like this guy from Tennessee!! JJ is a love and hate guy on this board now that he is here I hope for the best of him and his familia! Same for the rest of the draftees. We got 4 great picks from the top and with them we will be back in the playoffs this year..!!!..!!!

[Cope]

Finally, a linebacker to hate other than timmons ..
:rolleyes:

[Litos]

If Jarvis Jones did a 40 time of 4.75 during trainings with the Steelers many people in the forum would just start to love him. That's from where most of the hate comes I think

[Vader]

If Jarvis Jones did a 40 time of 4.75 during trainings with the Steelers many people in the forum would just start to love him. That's from where most of the hate comes I think

I don't understand this. Have you not read what others have been saying about him? He has a medical condition, he has one move for pass rushing (run around the corner), and he can be ran against. I don't hate the guy, I just thought it was a reach to draft him at #17 overall. I hope he does great, but you can't just run around the edge in the NFL. He has no other move.

[TMC]

I've done some research on recent college pass rushers.

Chandler Jones, Illinois - sackless in 24 of 32 games (75%); if you'd like to narrow this one down to his final two years at school, he went sackless in 14 of his final 20 games (70%)

J.J. Watt, Wisconsin - sackless in 15 of 25 games (60%) as a defensive player, spread evenly with 8 sackless games as a junior and 7 as a senior

Jason Pierre-Paul, South Florida - sackless in 7 of 13 games (53.8%); combined stats vs. Wofford, Western Kentucky, and Charleston Southern: 3 solos, 3 assists, 0 sacks, 1.5 TFL

Von Miller, Texas A&M - sackless in 22 of 45 games (49%); improved to only 7 of 25 (28%) in his final two seasons, but sackless vs. Stephen F. Austin, Louisiana Tech, Florida International, and Kansas, all as a senior

Brian Orakpo, Texas - sackless in 13 of 29 games (44.8%); I did not include his freshman season, in which he was apparently not often used as a pass rusher

Jarvis Jones, Georgia - sackless in 11 of 26 games (42.3%) at Georgia

Aldon Smith, Missouri - sackless in 6 of 17 games (35.2%); combined stats vs. Furman, Iowa State, and McNeese State: 4 solos, 5 assists, 0 sacks, 0 TFL

Your post was very thoughtful and considered a lot of factors, but it certainly doesn't look like Jarvis was an inconsistent or "flip the switch" type of player. Hard to say he didn't bother to show up against subpar competition: against Buffalo, Vanderbilt, and Auburn last season, he combined for 19 tackles, 4.5 sacks, and 7.5 TFL. Hard to say he didn't answer the bell against big competition: he absolutely dominated Alabama, Florida (twice), Mississippi State, and Nebraska.

Was he dominant in every game? No way. But neither were the All-Pro types I tracked above - all of whom were standouts in college. Jason Pierre-Paul's second-to-last game totaled one assisted tackle and no other stats, against a UConn tackle who's probably moved on to find his life's work.

That's not to say you're way off base here. Jones is not an elite pass rusher; his absurd collegiate production overinflates his actual skill (just not necessarily his value). A lot of his dominance came from motor and instinct, and as much as I understand the NEED for talent and athleticism, I'm not going to turn up my nose at a guy like that on this slipping defense. Furthermore, you were analytical in your post, which I appreciate. In fact, perhaps you can rebut the findings I've just presented. We're in some agreement on Jarvis; neither of us think he's headed for James Harrison territory as an edge rusher. Problem is, the narrative on this board is that his stumbled 40 time PROVES that he's Clark Haggans and is devoid of athleticism and skill. He has plenty; anyone with eyeballs can see that he plays significantly faster than his 40 time.

This was a very high-floor pick in a draft filled with m'eh floors (and ceilings). For anyone to say that a healthy Jarvis Jones doesn't appear to bring significant (not Watt-esque, but significant) positives to our defense is silly.

Chandler Jones had 10 sacks in his collegiate CAREER. Who touted his production? The big whoop about Jarvis Jones is his great production. Are you really comparing a guy with 29 sacks in 2 season to a guy with 10 in 3? Wow.

J.J. Watt had 11 sacks in his final two seasons (really compares to 29). I guess he was a production guy as well with piss poor measureables. Kind of hard to spread 11 sacks over more than 11 games, but he did get 11 sacks in 10 games. I guess the hell he was sackless in the other 15, at BEST, he would have been sackless in 14 because he only had 11 sacks to spread over 25 games. Still did not get them in bunches.

Jason-Pierre Paul was sackless in 7 of 13 games. He had 6.5 sacks in his career at South Florida. He was drafted because of what he did in shorts. Go ahead, tell us how well Jones did in shorts.

Not going to keep dredging through all these. Jones got 25% of his career sacks at Georgia against Xavier Nixon. He had 70% of his sacks in 30% of his games. You compare him to players drafted that turned into pass rushers in the pros, but ALL of those players had something he did not. They were healthy and physical specimens at the combine. Jones DOES NOT have that. People tout him solely because of his production. You mention something about Jones piss poor 40, weak bench, shitty BJ or VJ, or any other measure of his physical attributes, people point to his production.

Danny Wuerffell produced in the SEC too. Bruce Davis had 28 sacks in his final two seasons as well. Collegiate production with a lack of physical measureables means little. Again, other than his great numbers, what does Jones show? Does he show elite pass rush moves? Nope. Power to bullrush? Nope. Elite speed? Nope. A clean bill of health? Nope. He has his collegiate production. That is it.

[TMC]

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I feel it prudent to mention that we have not seen this kid play in OUR system yet. Maybe whatever hitch he has in his getalong was a function of where he played. The raw talent seems to be there...

Wow. I had not realized that. I wonder why they did not bring him in and test him in OUR system like they do all the other draft picks.

The "raw talent" does not appear to be there. The "raw talent" or athleticism is what is measured at the combine or pro day, you know, the day where Jarvis Jones ran and jumped like a 350 pound lineman and benched like a DB.

[Litos]

I don't understand this. Have you not read what others have been saying about him? He has a medical condition, he has one move for pass rushing (run around the corner), and he can be ran against. I don't hate the guy, I just thought it was a reach to draft him at #17 overall. I hope he does great, but you can't just run around the edge in the NFL. He has no other move.

the medical condition apparently has been cleared by the Steelers doctors (that's been said ebough already here too). The little I've seen from him shows he has an inside move too, not just run to the edge. And I didn't intend to say that it was the only fail in him, just that many people discarded him after his combine and that's all that matters to them.
Here's hoping he becomes a double digit sack with us, cheers

[TMC]

Marcus McNeil's medical condition was cleared by the Chargers doctors too. His spinal stenosis was a concern at the combine. He was drafted in the 2nd round in 2006. The Chargers cleared him. Drafted him. He lasted 6 years before he took the right shot that ended his career.

Will Jones be 6 years lucky? Will he be 10 years lucky? Will he be 1 year lucky?

[Litos]

Marcus McNeil's medical condition was cleared by the Chargers doctors too. His spinal stenosis was a concern at the combine. He was drafted in the 2nd round in 2006. The Chargers cleared him. Drafted him. He lasted 6 years before he took the right shot that ended his career.

Will Jones be 6 years lucky? Will he be 10 years lucky? Will he be 1 year lucky?

ok so the Steelers fucked up, there's no way around it. I'll just go on believing that we started drafting in the second round and that's it. No more Mr Bright Side from me

[diver5]

What the hell does all this matter now anyway? They can't go back and undraft the kid. A lot of wasted energy in a little pissing contest.

Not that this matters either, but those that are burying Jones or those that think he'll be great, be careful, because none of us knows really one way or the other. In a few years someone will be able to be chesty and someone will be eating crow. I think it's interesting to make grand pronouncements over something you have absolutely no control over.

[TMC]

Here is the thing, the draft is a gamble. Always is. Some choices appear better than others. I would not have picked Jones. Too many things about him that turned me off. In my pre-draft discussions with other guys on here that get in the film, we all kind of felt the same way. Could he bust? Sure. Could he turn out? Sure. If you are sold on him, fine. I am not. His big plus was his production. But, his production, namely sacks, did come in bunches. Maybe it was him just whipping that player. Maybe they schemed it. I did not like his pro day numbers. Scary bad. Not just the 40, but all the way around, very pedestrian. Kiss of death? Not completely, plenty have overcome bad numbers. Did not like his film either. Hard worker, feisty, relentless even, just lacks explosion, technique, power, burst, etc. Crafty guy with contact, slipped off some things....did not work against better competition though, like Kouandjio, but he will likely be a top 15 tackle next season. Would have liked to see him play A&M against Joekel. Did not happen. All in all, very iffy pick for me.

With that said, he could develop. He could be fine. I just am not going to sell a bill of goods here and make him into more than he is. This is a risky pick. If he turns out, it will be because of his determination and drive, which he has by the bucket load.

[thesteelcity]

That's kinda how I feel about him, TMC. What I read and watched of him doesn't WOW me, but he certainly has the potential to be a workhorse. Then again, he could be mediocre to bad, too. Could go either way. As a person, he a good guy and he did put up some good numbers at UGA, but it remains to be seen if he can do it in the NFL. I hope he does and is a staple for a long time in B&G. Reminds me of the Alonzo Jackson pick. Wasn't crazy about it then and still keeps me up at night. He could have gone either way and never "got it". Trying to be optimistic about Jarvis. Will support him on Sundays. He's a Steeler.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Wow. I had not realized that. I wonder why they did not bring him in and test him in OUR system like they do all the other draft picks.

The "raw talent" does not appear to be there. The "raw talent" or athleticism is what is measured at the combine or pro day, you know, the day where Jarvis Jones ran and jumped like a 350 pound lineman and benched like a DB.

Timed speed is bullshit and you know it. Lots of guys time slow and run fast on the field.

Exactly when and where did this guy line up with our starting players against another team in the NFL? When and where did that happen, site me time and location. Then and only then will we know what this kid can do in our system. That's how guys like Harrison get on coming out of places like Kent State. They get on the field and can just play. Who gives a rat's ass about his shuttle cone time?

You're ripping a kid you have not seen play in the Black and Gold. Have a little faith, TMC. Y'all are depressing me with all this damn negativity...

[SCSteeler4life]

There have been plenty of players that have sucked at the combine (Suggs for example) and have had long careers in the NFL. There has also been guys that have had great combine numbers that suck in the NFL. There are always hit and misses. I will wait and judge when they start playing games.

How did all of those draft gurus and combine experts miss so bad on Harrison and Brady for example ?

[fogdoctor]

Timed speed is bullshit and you know it. Lots of guys time slow and run fast on the field.

Exactly when and where did this guy line up with our starting players against another team in the NFL? When and where did that happen, site me time and location. Then and only then will we know what this kid can do in our system. That's how guys like Harrison get on coming out of places like Kent State. They get on the field and can just play. Who gives a rat's ass about his shuttle cone time?

You're ripping a kid you have not seen play in the Black and Gold. Have a little faith, TMC. Y'all are depressing me with all this damn negativity...

Players that have poor measurables tend to be poor NFL players. This is the sole reason for the existence / development of the combine. You can find an exception that bucks the trend here and there but make no mistake about it - they are exceptions. Im not saying that just because you have good numbers that you will be a good NFL player; rather, your numbers should be consistent with your college performance numbers.

If it were me: poor measureables + great stats = player I not touch in the first 2, probably 3 rounds. Harrison is not a good example because he was not an NFL player out of college. It took him YEARS to develop before he saw the field in the NFL. Even in college, he did not even start until his junior year and I think only had 1 really good year as a senior.

[Vader]

There have been plenty of players that have sucked at the combine (Suggs for example) and have had long careers in the NFL. There has also been guys that have had great combine numbers that suck in the NFL. There are always hit and misses. I will wait and judge when they start playing games.

How did all of those draft gurus and combine experts miss so bad on Harrison and Brady for example ?

It took Harrison years to catch on to the defense. Would you draft him in the 1st round knowing that it won't be until his 4th year until he can start? Also players like Brady happen so infrequently that it is almost impossible to find a HOF QB in the 6th round these days. It's called percentages. For every Brady there are hundreds of no named QBs. Just look at the best QBs in the NFL now. Ben, Manning I, Manning II, RG III, Luck, Rogers, Ryan, and even Flacco were drafted in the first round. Sometimes players slip through but not very many.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Players that have poor measurables tend to be poor NFL players. This is the sole reason for the existence / development of the combine. You can find an exception that bucks the trend here and there but make no mistake about it - they are exceptions. Im not saying that just because you have good numbers that you will be a good NFL player; rather, your numbers should be consistent with your college performance numbers.

If it were me: poor measureables + great stats = player I not touch in the first 2, probably 3 rounds. Harrison is not a good example because he was not an NFL player out of college. It took him YEARS to develop before he saw the field in the NFL. Even in college, he did not even start until his junior year and I think only had 1 really good year as a senior.

I worry more, with this guy, about the things said about his technique. That does give me pause. Combine numbers can mean all kinds of stuff, and how many combine superheros turn out to be duds? A shit ton.

More to the theme of my point: when did this board become such a downer? Everybody's looking to shit on THE STEELERS. We are

THE ONLY SIX TIME WORLD CHAMPS

Wake the fuck up people! This is a STEELERS board. It reads like a fucking CLEVELAND SHITSTAINS BOARD. This is our team and our players. Get with the fucking program!

[skialta]

wave your pom poms homey...
there are legitimate reasons for questioning the pick.
it's a fucking message board... what do you expect?

[Got Caught Steelin']

wave your pom poms homey...
there are legitimate reasons for questioning the pick.
it's a fucking message board... what do you expect?

Goddam right. And where are yours?

Do soldiers sit in the fox hole complaining about the lack of air support? No.'

WE SHOOT AT THE FUCKING ENEMY!

[EdReed4Prez]

Goddam right. And where are yours?

Do soldiers sit in the fox hole complaining about the lack of air support? No.'

WE SHOOT AT THE FUCKING ENEMY!


I'd bet they still ask about the air support.

[skialta]

Goddam right. And where are yours?

Do soldiers sit in the fox hole complaining about the lack of air support? No.'

WE SHOOT AT THE FUCKING ENEMY!

so...in summary...
i should never question anything that the steelers ever do.
you know...just because i'm in some imaginary fox hole?

[fogdoctor]

Kellen Winslow? Is that you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X60mrYO1UU

[skialta]

that clip is exactly what i thought of when i read that bullshit

[Got Caught Steelin']

I'd bet they still ask about the air support.

STFU with your common sense while I'm trying to make a rhetorical point here! (yes they would and do)


so...in summary...
i should never question anything that the steelers ever do.
you know...just because i'm in some imaginary fox hole?

This board was not always gloom and doom like this. We are the six time champs. We're less than 3 years from our last Superbowl appearance. There are STORIED historical franchises that have never been to the Superbowl.

Hello Cleveland!

Hello Detroit!

I mean damn. I talk major shit to every football fan I come across about how badass my Steelers are. And TMC. I'm surprised at that guy. His signature, which was the best on the internet, said in itallic letters: CRUSHING THE COMPETITION. What the hell happened to THAT guy? Now it's all bad omens and scary shadows with him.

Where's the fucking pride, man? The bravado that made this board so much fun to post on? FUCK THE SHITSTAINS! That was the good shit. Now we're all throwing grenades in our own hooches and fragging our officers. It's bullshit.

THE ENEMY IS THAT WAY FELLAS!

[SCSteeler4life]

It took Harrison years to catch on to the defense. Would you draft him in the 1st round knowing that it won't be until his 4th year until he can start? Also players like Brady happen so infrequently that it is almost impossible to find a HOF QB in the 6th round these days. It's called percentages. For every Brady there are hundreds of no named QBs. Just look at the best QBs in the NFL now. Ben, Manning I, Manning II, RG III, Luck, Rogers, Ryan, and even Flacco were drafted in the first round. Sometimes players slip through but not very many.

It goes both ways. Look at your Luck's and JaMarcus Russels. It's a total crap shoot. Let's just hope we roll 7's more than snake eyes.

[skialta]

STFU with your common sense while I'm trying to make a rhetorical point here! (yes they would and do)



This board was not always gloom and doom like this. We are the six time champs. We're less than 3 years from our last Superbowl appearance. There are STORIED historical franchises that have never been to the Superbowl.

Hello Cleveland!

Hello Detroit!

I mean damn. I talk major shit to every football fan I come across about how badass my Steelers are. And TMC. I'm surprised at that guy. His signature, which was the best on the internet, said in itallic letters: CRUSHING THE COMPETITION. What the hell happened to THAT guy? Now it's all bad omens and scary shadows with him.

Where's the fucking pride, man? The bravado that made this board so much fun to post on? FUCK THE SHITSTAINS! That was the good shit. Now we're all throwing grenades in our own hooches and fragging our officers. It's bullshit.

THE ENEMY IS THAT WAY FELLAS!



you're mistaking common sense, and rational thinking...for doom and gloom. nobody here is shunning the franchise...there are legitimate questions that we aren't sure of.
actually...the more i think about it, fuck it.
you're right.
we hate the steelers if we question any move they make.
nevermind

[Steelerfan]

Goddam right. And where are yours?

Do soldiers sit in the fox hole complaining about the lack of air support? No.'

WE SHOOT AT THE FUCKING ENEMY!

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!!!!!!!!!!!

[thesteelcity]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!!!!!!!!!!!

let him go, he's on a roll. . .

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!!!!!!!!!!!

Now what kind of moran doesn't know it was the Japanese? ;)

[thesteelcity]

how old are you BungleStain and what is a moran?

[Got Caught Steelin']

how are you BungleStain and wha is a moran?

The Malaprop vs the Grammar Nazi. Priceless...

[thesteelcity]

The Malaprop vs the Grammar Nazi. Priceless...

I guess I need bigger pom poms, huh, Perry?

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

Ok, the joke was lost on ^^^ see above ^^^^ I referenced the Germans bombing pearl harbor last year (just as many of SN like to reference the classic Belushi movie...) ... someone thought I was serious about the Germans bombing pearl harbor... apparently a few people have not seen Animal House... thought that was impossible for anyone here on SN. Moran is for effect, moran...

[EdReed4Prez]

Get a brain morans.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Ok, the joke was lost on ^^^ see above ^^^^ I referenced the Germans bombing pearl harbor last year (just as many of SN like to reference the classic Belushi movie...) ... someone thought I was serious about the Germans bombing pearl harbor... apparently a few people have not seen Animal House... thought that was impossible for anyone here on SN. Moran is for effect, moran...

Never saw Animal House. Indeed one of the bigger misses in my library. Guess I'll Netflix it one day...

[Vader]

It goes both ways. Look at your Luck's and JaMarcus Russels. It's a total crap shoot. Let's just hope we roll 7's more than snake eyes.

But it doesn't go both ways percentage wise. Yes, there are 1st round QBs that bust.. but nowhere near the number of QBs that bust from the 2nd round on. It isn't a crap shoot in that it is just luck. IF that were the case then the NFL wouldn't waste tons of man hours and tons of money on drafting. They'd pull a name out of a hat. Again most of your star QBs are 1st rounders for a reason. Not all of them but the vast majority of them.

[fogdoctor]

It goes both ways. Look at your Luck's and JaMarcus Russels. It's a total crap shoot. Let's just hope we roll 7's more than snake eyes.

Russell did not fail due to lack of physical skills. He has (had) elite physical tools to be an NFL QB. He was also extremely immature and had substance abuse problems.

I cant believe that I just came close to defending JaMarcus.

[deljzc]

Being a good G.M. and "drafter" is like gambling. The definition of success isn't 100% right. The definition of success is being better than average.

A good gambler only has to be a small tick or two better than the house to become a millionaire. A good poker player only has to find ways to steer the odds in their favor a tiny bit to make a huge difference in his career.

The same criteria is used for NFL draft analysis. Are Colbert and Tomlin outperforming the average expectations of their picks? It's not good enough to say they hit on so-and-so or failed on so-and-so. Every GM has hits and misses. It's looking at the totality of their resources (all their draft picks) and trying to really know what is average and then deciding whether or not this organization is reaching and exceeding those goals.

[SCSteeler4life]

But it doesn't go both ways percentage wise. Yes, there are 1st round QBs that bust.. but nowhere near the number of QBs that bust from the 2nd round on. It isn't a crap shoot in that it is just luck. IF that were the case then the NFL wouldn't waste tons of man hours and tons of money on drafting. They'd pull a name out of a hat. Again most of your star QBs are 1st rounders for a reason. Not all of them but the vast majority of them.

Can you post the link to your %'s your talking about. For every Manning there is a Alex Smith or Tim Couch. It is a total crap shoot. It is proven every single year. They spend the money on it because they can.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Russell did not fail due to lack of physical skills. He has (had) elite physical tools to be an NFL QB. He was also extremely immature and had substance abuse problems.
.

Along those same lines: Tom Brady is a garbage athlete. He couldn't run his way out of a wet paper bag and has a passable arm at best. And yet...

[CorpusDsteelers]

The steelers front office is so stupid and are clueless when it comes to drafting and evaluation of players! They must get lucky every year making it into the top 10 in defense every year. The playoff wins year after year are flukes also. Funny how people on nfl.com say he's the best pick from the afc north and pretty much every website has us graded as an A or B+ they must also be dead wrong. All the doom and gloom "fans" here must be right since they all watch film and can tally combine numbers. I think the steelers should fire all there scouts and just hire guys from here no need to have visits either we would win Super Bowls every year.

[Got Caught Steelin']

The steelers front office is so stupid and are clueless when it comes to drafting and evaluation of players! They must get lucky every year making it into the top 10 in defense every year. The playoff wins year after year are flukes also. Funny how people on nfl.com say he's the best pick from the afc north and pretty much every website has us graded as an A or B+ they must also be dead wrong. All the doom and gloom "fans" here must be right since they all watch film and can tally combine numbers. I think the steelers should fire all there scouts and just hire guys from here no need to have visits either we would win Super Bowls every year.

CO fucking SIGN.

[Idioteque]

Well, I'm convinced. Hooray for workout numbers!!

[ExUSAF]

Being a good G.M. and "drafter" is like gambling. The definition of success isn't 100% right. The definition of success is being better than average.

A good gambler only has to be a small tick or two better than the house to become a millionaire. A good poker player only has to find ways to steer the odds in their favor a tiny bit to make a huge difference in his career.

The same criteria is used for NFL draft analysis. Are Colbert and Tomlin outperforming the average expectations of their picks? It's not good enough to say they hit on so-and-so or failed on so-and-so. Every GM has hits and misses. It's looking at the totality of their resources (all their draft picks) and trying to really know what is average and then deciding whether or not this organization is reaching and exceeding those goals.

Well said - but Jarvis Jones was too high a gamble - you don't try to pull to an inside straight - you wait for a better hand. We should have passed and taken someone else. Gamble 1 - spinal stenosis; gamble 2 - poor combine numbers; gamble 3 - a reputation of not being overly enthusiastic about working out to make himself better; gamble 4 - needs to bulk up. The only reason we got a good grade for drafting was rounds 2 - 4.

[Ron Burgundy]

Never saw Animal House. Indeed one of the bigger misses in my library. Guess I'll Netflix it one day...

Animal House
Young Frankenstein
Blazing Saddles
Office Space
Christmas Vacation

Just a heads-up.



Along those same lines: Tom Brady is a garbage athlete. He couldn't run his way out of a wet paper bag and has a passable arm at best. And yet...
1) He's deadly accurate, 2) The refs don't let anyone touch him, 3) It helps when you know what the defense is going to do.

[Nocturnus]

Really? Starters and every-down players.. accomplished sack artists.. threats for double-digit sacks.. and if you're not in on Fairley, I'd love to hear why. When he finally got healthy last season, he was all but unblockable.

Sorry, not one of those guys I would consider a "great" player as you said. I know it's all subjective, but there it is. And Fairley has missed 9 games in 2 seasons. Part of being a great player is actually playing. I will say that he has the most upside of all of them though.

Carlos Dunlap had 33 solo tackles and 6 sacks last year. Greg Hardy was better, having 41 solos and 11 sacks, but his previous high before that was 4. Still, hardly great. Everybody else on the list I gave has done nothing of note.

If you could explain what "greatness" you see in these players, I would love to hear that.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Animal House
Young Frankenstein


Missed em so far.


Blazing Saddles
Office Space

Two of the best movies EVER made. Love em. "I'm gonna need those TPS reports..." and "No dag blammit! The sheriff is a..." *BONG*



Christmas Vacation

Just a heads-up.


I'm shocked that you of all people didn't put Anchorman on that list. It's made from bits of real panther, so you know it's good.



1) He's deadly accurate, 2) The refs don't let anyone touch him, 3) It helps when you know what the defense is going to do.

Agree on all points. When I make this argument to people they usually pretend the refs/rulebook are irrelevant. Like Suggs (T-sizzle the UGLY nizzle) said, "they let us do whatever we want to Roethlisberger....but try that on 12? You might be out of the league."

[Stlrs4Life]

I like the pick. I think he is going to do well. I'm more worried about our ILB positions.

[JJ77]

I like the pick. I think he is going to do well. I'm more worried about our ILB positions.

He is going to be a bust, go root for the Patriots.

[Ron Burgundy]

I'm shocked that you of all people didn't put Anchorman on that list. It's made from bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
Not everyone here gets "Anchorman". Or me for that matter.

[Punxsutawney]

Sorry, not one of those guys I would consider a "great" player as you said. I know it's all subjective, but there it is. And Fairley has missed 9 games in 2 seasons. Part of being a great player is actually playing. I will say that he has the most upside of all of them though.

Carlos Dunlap had 33 solo tackles and 6 sacks last year. Greg Hardy was better, having 41 solos and 11 sacks, but his previous high before that was 4. Still, hardly great. Everybody else on the list I gave has done nothing of note.

If you could explain what "greatness" you see in these players, I would love to hear that.

Yeah, it boggles the mind to see the lengths people are going to in an attempt to justify what was a very suspect selection at #17. Now, they're overrating current NFL players. Whatever.

I'm amazed at the degree of confidence that is generally being shown with the pick not only due to Jones' glaring physical/athletic deficiencies, but also due to the fact Colbert's track record of drafting OLBs early in the draft kind of blows.

Since he's a Steelers, I'm pulling for Jones', but my expectations are extremely low. His selection prompted the same "oh shit" reaction from me that the selection of Worilds did three years ago.

[Smidrow]

He is going to be a bust, go root for the Patriots.

Wow.....SMH.....

[Idioteque]

What you guys need to wrap your minds around is that this was NOT a superstar draft. It could go down as one of the worst in recent memory in terms of All-Pro nods and general talent across the board. It was a draft of big uglies and role players. There will be some guys picked after we took Jarvis who will outperform him (Reid and Elam were kinda high in my book), and there will be some guys who were off the board that Jarvis will outperform. This was NOT a draft likely at all to produce a HOFer, let alone at #17.

Jarvis does not have "top-tier pass rusher" ability. As whiny as he is, TMC summed him up fairly accurately from a scouting perspective. He has a good, not great, first step that will only catapult him past SOME left tackles. He has fantastic drive and intangibles, but a limited array of specialized pass rush moves. At this stage, he's not Dwight Freeney or Julius Peppers. However, I'm not going to look at an injured player's 40 time and one-day measurables and draw an X through all of his positives. Too many Mamulas, Gholstons, and Silverbacks out there to assume that a guy's Pro Day measurables tell The Story. I love the draft and all of the poking and prodding that goes along with it. That said, all of the attention paid to it nowadays produces far too many armchair scouts who will insist there's a mold that can't be broken. Eventually, you start hearing stuff like, "He only ran a 4.51?!? We needed a FAST receiver! 4.45 at the MINIMUM!" Furthermore, I'm not going to fall into the trap of assuming that a player won't/can't improve on his weaknesses. Lots of today's top pass rushers came into the league as inconsistent, one-trick ponies who have had to learn.

[Punxsutawney]

Jarvis does not have "top-tier pass rusher" ability. As whiny as he is, TMC summed him up fairly accurately from a scouting perspective. He has a good, not great, first step that will only catapult him past SOME left tackles. He has fantastic drive and intangibles, but a limited array of specialized pass rush moves].

That doesn't seem like a first round pick to me. As was the case with Dwight Freeney, if an edge player is undersized, he better be lightning quick, and Jones just isn't.

The Harrison comparisons are just not valid at all, IMO. Harrison easily plays 20-25 lbs heavier than Jones does. Based on the UGA games I've seen, if Jones' playing weight is an ounce over 230, I'd be shocked. In his prime, Harrison also possessed great explosion off the line. Jones doesn't have that.

And yes, it was an overall weak draft class. I acknowledged as much before the draft, but I still feel there were better prospects available at #17. I personally would have rather had Trufant or Rhodes.

With all that being said, my initial anger over the selection of Jones has subsided, as I've come to accept that he is now a Steeler and they need him to succeed.

[Idioteque]

That doesn't seem like a first round pick to me. As was the case with Dwight Freeney, if an edge player is undersized, he better be lightning quick, and Jones just isn't.

That's a fair point. Jones isn't dynamic or special in the way that recent freaks like JPP, Von Miller, Aldon Smith, etc. are, which is why he has a lower ceiling. Still, in most drafts, Jones' tape and measurables probably make him a mid-to-late-first type of pick, especially since I think that RB, CB, 4-3 MLB, and G should be shut out of the first round unless it's an All-World type of talent. Quarterbacks, pass rushers, versatile 4-3 DTs, offensive tackles, all-over-the-field safeties, and special WRs are to be targeted early and hoarded. Jones plays a premium position and has all of the production and intangibles in the world; he's worthy of the first.

One facet of Jones' game that isn't being mentioned at all is his ability to create havoc, namely turnovers. He forced a nation-high seven fumbles last year. Like Harrison and Umenyiora, part of his sacking technique is to swipe the ballcarrier's arm to force a fumble; he's tremendous at it. A difference-maker like that can jump an entire draft round or two in value. Look at Ed Reed, for example: ordinary in coverage and run support, but a borderline HOFer because he spectacularly and instinctively just stole the ball so often. Fuck you, I'm taking the ball. Ours. This is a skill not quantified by Pro Day numbers, and it adds new dimensions to a team. Remember when Troy branched out from being a blurry-fast, all-over-the-box run support safety to an all-around havoc machine that defended the pass and created turnovers? That is essential to an elite defense. Take last year's defense, swap Harrison's six sacks with 8-10 from Jarvis and add a few more turnovers. Wouldn't that result be worth a first-round pick?


The Harrison comparisons are just not valid at all, IMO. Harrison easily plays 20-25 lbs heavier than Jones does. Based on the UGA games I've seen, if Jones' playing weight is an ounce over 230, I'd be shocked.

Jones measured at 245 at his Pro Day. Besides, is it really fair to compare fully matured, eleven-year veteran James Harrison's physique to that of a rookie? Don't you expect Jones' physique at 35 to look different than it does now? Harrison is in his mid-30s and has spent the last eleven years on an NFL training regimen. Jones is 22, probably still growing, and has never seen an NFL weight room.

There is wayyyy too much attention focused on how much a rookie weighs. NFL players, especially young ones, pack on and/or drop weight like you and I take a dump. Remember when MoJo Drew was a 5'7, 180-lb scatback who needed to focus on returning kickoffs because he was so tiny? He's now ripped like a freak and has played well, played long, and played a lot. Same is probably true for most NFL youngsters who give a shit about their careers and take advantage of team resources. Jarvis Jones may weigh 246 now, but he'll be 255 IF and when he's asked to be 255. We can't call this kid a scrawny turd over 5-10 pounds, especially considering:

DeMarcus Ware - 6'4, 251
Von Miller - 6'3, 246
Bruce Irvin - 6'3, 245
Clay Matthews - 6'3, 240


In his prime, Harrison also possessed great explosion off the line. Jones doesn't have that.

In college, and at his combine, he apparently didn't. He went to a small school, ran slow, and didn't get drafted. He had/has the mental ability to supplement his (very relative) lack of physical gifts with things like experience, toughness, and versatility. By accounts, Jones has that stuff as well. NFL history is loaded with stories of second-tier athletes outperforming physical freaks because they had the intangible qualities necessary to succeed, even dominate. The popularization of the draft has created a public perception that these occurrences are rare, and that The System usually works, order usually prevails, the fast 40 guy usually ends up better than the slower 40 guy, etc. But guys like Jarvis Jones excel all the time.

[dobre shunka]

Jones is 23, not 22, and will be 24 this season. He's about maxed his frame. And if you go back and compare the Missouri game from the beginning of the year with the Alabama game in the SEC champ game, the concern of his natural playing weight and the concern regarding his ability to add and maintain weight is valid enough for me. Against Missouri he looks the part, thick. Against Alabama, he did look like a strong safety. And he struggled to set an edge against TEs that game. Alabama ran right at and over him with impunity.

And with Harrison, he didn't get invited to the combine. His pro day workouts have been impossible to find for over a decade, until now, when a guy known to pull shit out of his ass hangs a 4.85 on him out of no where. He didn't get drafted because he was a total headcase.

[Vader]

Can you post the link to your %'s your talking about. For every Manning there is a Alex Smith or Tim Couch. It is a total crap shoot. It is proven every single year. They spend the money on it because they can.

Sorry but this is a very ignorant post. They spend money on scouts and the combine because they can? Also just look at the SB winning QBs and you'll find all the % you want. The past few seasons: Flacco, Eli, Rogers, Ben, and Peyton. The past 8 years only 1 QB not drafted in the 1st round won the SB... and that was Drew Brees. And BTW Brees was a HIGH 2nd round pick and would have been a 1st round pick IF the same numbers of teams where in the league in 2001. He was drafted 32 overall. So tell me again how it is a crap shoot.

[TMC]

Jones is 23, not 22, and will be 24 this season. He's about maxed his frame. And if you go back and compare the Missouri game from the beginning of the year with the Alabama game in the SEC champ game, the concern of his natural playing weight and the concern regarding his ability to add and maintain weight is valid enough for me. Against Missouri he looks the part, thick. Against Alabama, he did look like a strong safety. And he struggled to set an edge against TEs that game. Alabama ran right at and over him with impunity.

And with Harrison, he didn't get invited to the combine. His pro day workouts have been impossible to find for over a decade, until now, when a guy known to pull shit out of his ass hangs a 4.85 on him out of no where. He didn't get drafted because he was a total headcase.

Here is the odd part, they compare him to James Harrison. Harrison was a small school guy that lacked the height desired. He struggled to grasp the playbook. It took him 4 years to develop. He went undrafted. Not exactly a glowing comparison for the 17th pick overall. It is not like Jones was signed as an undrafted rookie.

[Vader]

Here is the odd part, they compare him to James Harrison. Harrison was a small school guy that lacked the height desired. He struggled to grasp the playbook. It took him 4 years to develop. He went undrafted. Not exactly a glowing comparison for the 17th pick overall. It is not like Jones was signed as an undrafted rookie.

I've been told the percentages are exactly the same. Just like a crap shoot. Just put a name in the hat and they all have the same chance of working out. Hell, I even found out that the NFL teams just do combines, workout and use scouts because "they can".

[Punxsutawney]

Jones measured at 245 at his Pro Day. Besides, is it really fair to compare fully matured, eleven-year veteran James Harrison's physique to that of a rookie? Don't you expect Jones' physique at 35 to look different than it does now? Harrison is in his mid-30s and has spent the last eleven years on an NFL training regimen. Jones is 22, probably still growing, and has never seen an NFL weight room.

There is wayyyy too much attention focused on how much a rookie weighs. NFL players, especially young ones, pack on and/or drop weight like you and I take a dump. Remember when MoJo Drew was a 5'7, 180-lb scatback who needed to focus on returning kickoffs because he was so tiny? He's now ripped like a freak and has played well, played long, and played a lot. Same is probably true for most NFL youngsters who give a shit about their careers and take advantage of team resources. Jarvis Jones may weigh 246 now, but he'll be 255 IF and when he's asked to be 255. We can't call this kid a scrawny turd over 5-10 pounds, especially considering:

DeMarcus Ware - 6'4, 251
Von Miller - 6'3, 246
Bruce Irvin - 6'3, 245
Clay Matthews - 6'3, 240
.

My point is that I do not believe that Jones plays close to his listed weight. He looks about 15-20 lbs lighter on video and yes, 10-20 lbs can make a large difference for a pass rusher that is not overly explosive.

The guy just looks REALLY small on the field, to the point he could almost be mistaken for a safety. That is not an issue with any of the players you listed.

[Punxsutawney]

Here is the odd part, they compare him to James Harrison. Harrison was a small school guy that lacked the height desired. He struggled to grasp the playbook. It took him 4 years to develop. He went undrafted. Not exactly a glowing comparison for the 17th pick overall. It is not like Jones was signed as an undrafted rookie.

I believe Harrison developed in much less time than the four years you cited. Every time he was asked to fill in form Porter or Haggans in the 2004-2006 period, he played extremely well.

I believe the Steelers grossly underestimated and misevaluated what they had in Harrison. He was probably a better player than Haggans by 2005 and better than Porter by 2006. Even prior to his breakout season in 2007, the Steelers had drafted Timmons to eventually replace him.

[Got Caught Steelin']

My point is that I do not believe that Jones plays close to his listed weight. He looks about 15-20 lbs lighter on video and yes, 10-20 lbs can make a large difference for a pass rusher that is not overly explosive.

The guy just looks REALLY small on the field, to the point he could almost be mistaken for a safety. That is not an issue with any of the players you listed.

Bob Sanders was, and Troy Polamalu is a great blitzer. They're not nearly LB sized.

Can he get there, that's all I care about. Can he get pressure, disrupt plays and make tackles. That's what matters. I shit on the Landry pick because I don't think he can actually play because his production did not match his size/talent level. Jarvis, though, has shown just the opposite. That he can play, regardless of his limitations. He's earned the benefit of the doubt, Landry hasn't.

[TMC]

I believe Harrison developed in much less time than the four years you cited. Every time he was asked to fill in form Porter or Haggans in the 2004-2006 period, he played extremely well.

I believe the Steelers grossly underestimated and misevaluated what they had in Harrison. He was probably a better player than Haggans by 2005 and better than Porter by 2006. Even prior to his breakout season in 2007, the Steelers had drafted Timmons to eventually replace him.

Harrison was in the 2002 NFL draft. He spent 2002 and 2003 basically bouncing around. He spent the summer of 2004 in Europe. He made the roster for the first time in 2004. It was his 3rd season away from college. In 2005 and 2006, he was a backup with 3 starts. He got his starting chance in 2007. First two seasons, he did not even dress. Third year, he was a special teamer. Fourth and fifth year, he gets 3 starts. Prior to 2005, he had not done shit. IF he was ready in 2005, that would have been his 4th season.

[Punxsutawney]

Harrison was in the 2002 NFL draft. He spent 2002 and 2003 basically bouncing around. He spent the summer of 2004 in Europe. He made the roster for the first time in 2004. It was his 3rd season away from college. In 2005 and 2006, he was a backup with 3 starts. He got his starting chance in 2007. First two seasons, he did not even dress. Third year, he was a special teamer. Fourth and fifth year, he gets 3 starts. Prior to 2005, he had not done shit. IF he was ready in 2005, that would have been his 4th season.

I believe he started multiple games in 2004.

[Punxsutawney]

Bob Sanders was, and Troy Polamalu is a great blitzer. They're not nearly LB sized.

.

There is a huge difference between being asked to rush from the secondary level a couple times a game and being asked to rush from the LB level 20 times a game.

[TMC]

I believe he started multiple games in 2004.

Even if he took 3 years to develop, is that the window we are looking for with the 17th pick? Sit two seasons, start 4 games in your 3rd year due to injury, four more over the next two seasons, then crack the starting lineup on your second contract. Hell, that is worse than Worilds.

[Punxsutawney]

Even if he took 3 years to develop, is that the window we are looking for with the 17th pick? Sit two seasons, start 4 games in your 3rd year due to injury, four more over the next two seasons, then crack the starting lineup on your second contract. Hell, that is worse than Worilds.

Remember, I'm on your side of the Jarvis Jones aisle.

Obviously, taking three years to develop is not acceptable for a 1st round selection. My point was that the Steelers may have wasted 2-3 prime years from Harrison by starting an inferior player in Haggans. Who's to say Harrison could not have had his breakout season in 2004?

[SCSteeler4life]

Sorry but this is a very ignorant post. They spend money on scouts and the combine because they can? Also just look at the SB winning QBs and you'll find all the % you want. The past few seasons: Flacco, Eli, Rogers, Ben, and Peyton. The past 8 years only 1 QB not drafted in the 1st round won the SB... and that was Drew Brees. And BTW Brees was a HIGH 2nd round pick and would have been a 1st round pick IF the same numbers of teams where in the league in 2001. He was drafted 32 overall. So tell me again how it is a crap shoot.

What about all of the ones drafted in the first round that didn't win the SB ? Just like I said and I will say it again it is a crap shoot. You fail to mention the Tim Couchs or the Ryan Leafs or JaMarcus Russels of the league for good one you name I can name a bust. It is the nature of the draft. No exact science some teams are better than others at it. I say we fall in the top ten of the league.

[Got Caught Steelin']

There is a huge difference between being asked to rush from the secondary level a couple times a game and being asked to rush from the LB level 20 times a game.

I get that. But pad level and technique are also factors. Back in the 80's people said LT's sack numbers were inflated because he played LB and not DE. It's all relative. All I care about is can he do the job, not what he looks like doing it.

[stillwright]

Here is the odd part, they compare him to James Harrison. Harrison was a small school guy that lacked the height desired. He struggled to grasp the playbook. It took him 4 years to develop. He went undrafted. Not exactly a glowing comparison for the 17th pick overall. It is not like Jones was signed as an undrafted rookie.

I kind of think they are comparing 40 times and not how long they think or hope he will learn the system. Harrison's 40 wasn't special and he could excel hence Jones has a chance to also.

[tapeANaspirin2it]

What bugs me is all the people saying that those who don't like Jones are just too wrapped up in combine numbers. That's crap.

I felt the steelers biggest need was a pass rush OLB. I don't think Worilds will ever be more than just OK. They badly need an above average pass rusher. That meant that when i was looking at the draft i spent lots of time looking at the different 3-4 OLB. With guys like Dion Jordan, Ansah, Mingo, and Jarvis Jones, my initial thought was the steelers would just pick whoever fell to them and be all set.

Then i started looking at them closesly, and i didn't want any of them. Well, actually i wanted Jordan because he has elite physical tools and would have been too much athlete to pass up.

Ansah is too robotic. He can be effective as a 4-3 DE that just pass rushes, but he has no instincts for the game to play LB.
MIngo is erratic and a retard and weak. He's just a speed guy.

Jarvis Jones was my big hope. Then i watched him and i saw nothing that he does particularly well. Many of his sacks were hustle plays where he just didn't give up and the QB held the ball too long so he got there. I routinely saw him get stoned at the line by at decent LT. I saw him get pushed around in the run game.

People rag on Te'o for a bad game vs Bama. Well, i think Jones was worse. Bama was single blocking him with a TE by the end of the game and running right at him. His big play came when he was run out of the play by the OT and Eddie Lacy saw him and inexplicably turned his back on him and allowed Jones to get back in the play and get a sack from behind.

He has a good motor, and i like how he swipes at the ball, but the bottom line is he's small and does not have elite speed or athletic ability.

People say Suggs ran a slow 40, but he's a power rusher so that doesn't matter.

They say Harrison isn't that big. That's true but he's freakishly strong for his size. When Harrison hurt his back he was much less effective. Why? Because he had nerve damage and it weakened his legs. He could still run , but without that power, he wasn't the same guy.

To be a great pass rusher, you need to be really fast, or really strong. Jones is neither. Ultimately i think guys like Lemonier or Okafor in later rounds would have had just as much upside as pass rushers.

EVen with all of that negative, i still would have been OK with the pick if 2 things happend
1. Eifert was already gone
2. The Steelers tried to trade back.

Since neither of those things happened, it leads me to believe the steelers completely locked in on Jones. They probably would have taken him at pick 10.

[Got Caught Steelin']

What bugs me is all the people saying that those who don't like Jones are just too wrapped up in combine numbers. That's crap.

I felt the steelers biggest need was a pass rush OLB. I don't think Worilds will ever be more than just OK. They badly need an above average pass rusher. That meant that when i was looking at the draft i spent lots of time looking at the different 3-4 OLB. With guys like Dion Jordan, Ansah, Mingo, and Jarvis Jones, my initial thought was the steelers would just pick whoever fell to them and be all set.

Then i started looking at them closesly, and i didn't want any of them. Well, actually i wanted Jordan because he has elite physical tools and would have been too much athlete to pass up.

Ansah is too robotic. He can be effective as a 4-3 DE that just pass rushes, but he has no instincts for the game to play LB.
MIngo is erratic and a retard and weak. He's just a speed guy.

Jarvis Jones was my big hope. Then i watched him and i saw nothing that he does particularly well. Many of his sacks were hustle plays where he just didn't give up and the QB held the ball too long so he got there. I routinely saw him get stoned at the line by at decent LT. I saw him get pushed around in the run game.

People rag on Te'o for a bad game vs Bama. Well, i think Jones was worse. Bama was single blocking him with a TE by the end of the game and running right at him. His big play came when he was run out of the play by the OT and Eddie Lacy saw him and inexplicably turned his back on him and allowed Jones to get back in the play and get a sack from behind.

He has a good motor, and i like how he swipes at the ball, but the bottom line is he's small and does not have elite speed or athletic ability.

People say Suggs ran a slow 40, but he's a power rusher so that doesn't matter.

They say Harrison isn't that big. That's true but he's freakishly strong for his size. When Harrison hurt his back he was much less effective. Why? Because he had nerve damage and it weakened his legs. He could still run , but without that power, he wasn't the same guy.

To be a great pass rusher, you need to be really fast, or really strong. Jones is neither. Ultimately i think guys like Lemonier or Okafor in later rounds would have had just as much upside as pass rushers.

EVen with all of that negative, i still would have been OK with the pick if 2 things happend
1. Eifert was already gone
2. The Steelers tried to trade back.

Since neither of those things happened, it leads me to believe the steelers completely locked in on Jones. They probably would have taken him at pick 10.

Tape: I agree that the guy won't win on athleticism.

But...

He does find the football. Drifting out in space he can find ways to make himself unaccounted for.

And he does hustle. Alot. And that alone may keep some of the playmaking QBs we play against from hurting us on extended plays.

In other words, he may not be a Lloyd or a Harrison, but something else all his own at the position.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

What bugs me is all the people saying that those who don't like Jones are just too wrapped up in combine numbers. That's crap.

I felt the steelers biggest need was a pass rush OLB. I don't think Worilds will ever be more than just OK. They badly need an above average pass rusher. That meant that when i was looking at the draft i spent lots of time looking at the different 3-4 OLB. With guys like Dion Jordan, Ansah, Mingo, and Jarvis Jones, my initial thought was the steelers would just pick whoever fell to them and be all set.

Then i started looking at them closesly, and i didn't want any of them. Well, actually i wanted Jordan because he has elite physical tools and would have been too much athlete to pass up.

Ansah is too robotic. He can be effective as a 4-3 DE that just pass rushes, but he has no instincts for the game to play LB.
MIngo is erratic and a retard and weak. He's just a speed guy.

Jarvis Jones was my big hope. Then i watched him and i saw nothing that he does particularly well. Many of his sacks were hustle plays where he just didn't give up and the QB held the ball too long so he got there. I routinely saw him get stoned at the line by at decent LT. I saw him get pushed around in the run game.

People rag on Te'o for a bad game vs Bama. Well, i think Jones was worse. Bama was single blocking him with a TE by the end of the game and running right at him. His big play came when he was run out of the play by the OT and Eddie Lacy saw him and inexplicably turned his back on him and allowed Jones to get back in the play and get a sack from behind.

He has a good motor, and i like how he swipes at the ball, but the bottom line is he's small and does not have elite speed or athletic ability.

People say Suggs ran a slow 40, but he's a power rusher so that doesn't matter.

They say Harrison isn't that big. That's true but he's freakishly strong for his size. When Harrison hurt his back he was much less effective. Why? Because he had nerve damage and it weakened his legs. He could still run , but without that power, he wasn't the same guy.

To be a great pass rusher, you need to be really fast, or really strong. Jones is neither. Ultimately i think guys like Lemonier or Okafor in later rounds would have had just as much upside as pass rushers.

EVen with all of that negative, i still would have been OK with the pick if 2 things happend
1. Eifert was already gone
2. The Steelers tried to trade back.

Since neither of those things happened, it leads me to believe the steelers completely locked in on Jones. They probably would have taken him at pick 10.

Agree with above...

Just hope he ends up over-achieving, but with that comment that he does not like to workout hard, I question his heart... sorry any warrior needs to train hard, or they become like Woodley... not as good as they could be.

[Idioteque]

Sorry, not one of those guys I would consider a "great" player as you said. I know it's all subjective, but there it is. And Fairley has missed 9 games in 2 seasons. Part of being a great player is actually playing. I will say that he has the most upside of all of them though.

Carlos Dunlap had 33 solo tackles and 6 sacks last year. Greg Hardy was better, having 41 solos and 11 sacks, but his previous high before that was 4. Still, hardly great. Everybody else on the list I gave has done nothing of note.

If you could explain what "greatness" you see in these players, I would love to hear that.

OK, I'll try again.

Frankly, I don't think you've followed any of these players in the NFL. I have. I think you looked at the list of SEC sack leaders, didn't see an established superstar, and rolled with it. I'll shed some light.

Carlos Dunlap, as a rookie, played in 12 games and racked up 9.5 sacks. That's outstanding. In his second season, his sack total dipped to 4.5, but he was among the league leaders in QB hits and pressures. In fact, on the season, he graded out as Pro Football Focus' #5 4-3 DE. Also outstanding. Last year, he dipped to 6 sacks. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

Greg Hardy was drafted late (6th round), but quickly joined the Panthers' rotation. As a rookie, he had three sacks in very limited snaps. Last season, not only did he have 11 sacks, he graded out as the league's #8 4-3 DE, as he's stout vs. the run and the pass. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

Nick Fairley has struggled with injuries, but has been dominant on the field. Last season, he was graded as the #5 DT in all of football. That sounds good to me. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

This was, relatively speaking, a weak, weak draft. Some of you expected Julius Peppers in his prime to be available at #17 of a very weak draft. This was a role player draft; if the worst-case scenario is that we got a great role player, then we did great. If we end up getting a Dunlap/Hardy/Fairley at that spot, then we struck gold.

[xc944]

Tape: I agree that the guy won't win on athleticism.

But...

He does find the football. Drifting out in space he can find ways to make himself unaccounted for.

And he does hustle. Alot. And that alone may keep some of the playmaking QBs we play against from hurting us on extended plays.

In other words, he may not be a Lloyd or a Harrison, but something else all his own at the position.
Yes a backup

[fogdoctor]

Cant really compare Dunlap, Hardy, and Fairley to Jones. All bigger, stronger, faster with excellent measurables. If we had drafted a player with that level of size/speed and production it would be all unicorns and rainbows here. I know they are not OLBs but the point is still valid.

Carlos Dunlap: 4.7/40, 277lbs, 6'6"
Greg Hardy: 4.8/40, 281lbs, 6'4"
Nick Fairley: 4.87/40, 291lbs, 6'4"

[Idioteque]

Cant really compare Dunlap, Hardy, and Fairley to Jones. All bigger, stronger, faster with excellent measurables. If we had drafted a player with that level of size/speed and production it would be all unicorns and rainbows here. I know they are not OLBs but the point is still valid.

Carlos Dunlap: 4.7/40, 277lbs, 6'6"
Greg Hardy: 4.8/40, 281lbs, 6'4"
Nick Fairley: 4.87/40, 291lbs, 6'4"

No one is comparing anyone to anyone here. Dude told me that SEC sack leaders don't pan out in the pros, I named three recent ones who have. No comparison being made to Jones.

[Idioteque]

Yep, I'm convinced. Vertical jump tells the tale. Players can't/don't overcome workout numbers; your 40 time defines you. Even if you were injured when you ran it.

[fogdoctor]

No one is comparing anyone to anyone here. Dude told me that SEC sack leaders don't pan out in the pros, I named three recent ones who have. No comparison being made to Jones.

Makes sense.

[deljzc]

I don't see OLB our biggest need. What if Worilds is for real? Based on his playing time, it's not completely outside the realm of possibility the guy gets 12 sacks this year as a 95% playing-time guy (which is where he is headed, even with Jones on the roster).

Lebeau does not substitute for his linebackers. He plays 4 each game 100% if he could. The only time he deviates from that is from injury. He plays nickle by pulling out his NT. That's it. For all the complexity of the zone blitz, in his perfect world, you give him 12 healthy guys and that's all he wants.

We play nickle defense 50% of the time and right now that means William Gay is going to get 500 snaps this year. I think that's a crazy "plan" that is asking for trouble. If we draft a CB in round 1, we are GOING to get 500 snaps from him this season. No way we see Jones get that many except because of injury.

The biggest opportunities for playing time this season are from a new RB, CB and WR. That's because Tomlin/Colbert are tired of Redman/Dwyer and we just lost 900 snaps from Lewis and Wallace and people are moving up the depth chart.

We drafted a RB and CB in rounds 2 and 3 and they are going to see significant playing time. OLB? Not so much because I don't think Jones is physically ready to beat out Worilds and the coaching staff is going to see that pretty quick.

We actually could have gotten a lot more bang for our buck THIS YEAR from a 1st round cornerback rather than OLB. Maybe the Steelers are "planning ahead" to 2014, but that is very much unlike their M.O.

[steel shinin]

What bugs me is all the people saying that those who don't like Jones are just too wrapped up in combine numbers. That's crap.

I felt the steelers biggest need was a pass rush OLB. I don't think Worilds will ever be more than just OK. They badly need an above average pass rusher. That meant that when i was looking at the draft i spent lots of time looking at the different 3-4 OLB. With guys like Dion Jordan, Ansah, Mingo, and Jarvis Jones, my initial thought was the steelers would just pick whoever fell to them and be all set.

Then i started looking at them closesly, and i didn't want any of them. Well, actually i wanted Jordan because he has elite physical tools and would have been too much athlete to pass up.

Ansah is too robotic. He can be effective as a 4-3 DE that just pass rushes, but he has no instincts for the game to play LB.
MIngo is erratic and a retard and weak. He's just a speed guy.

Jarvis Jones was my big hope. Then i watched him and i saw nothing that he does particularly well. Many of his sacks were hustle plays where he just didn't give up and the QB held the ball too long so he got there. I routinely saw him get stoned at the line by at decent LT. I saw him get pushed around in the run game.

People rag on Te'o for a bad game vs Bama. Well, i think Jones was worse. Bama was single blocking him with a TE by the end of the game and running right at him. His big play came when he was run out of the play by the OT and Eddie Lacy saw him and inexplicably turned his back on him and allowed Jones to get back in the play and get a sack from behind.

He has a good motor, and i like how he swipes at the ball, but the bottom line is he's small and does not have elite speed or athletic ability.

People say Suggs ran a slow 40, but he's a power rusher so that doesn't matter.

They say Harrison isn't that big. That's true but he's freakishly strong for his size. When Harrison hurt his back he was much less effective. Why? Because he had nerve damage and it weakened his legs. He could still run , but without that power, he wasn't the same guy.

To be a great pass rusher, you need to be really fast, or really strong. Jones is neither. Ultimately i think guys like Lemonier or Okafor in later rounds would have had just as much upside as pass rushers.

EVen with all of that negative, i still would have been OK with the pick if 2 things happend
1. Eifert was already gone
2. The Steelers tried to trade back.

Since neither of those things happened, it leads me to believe the steelers completely locked in on Jones. They probably would have taken him at pick 10.

I was down on Jones until I watched some of his play. Georgia schemed up a TON of stuff for Jones and some of his plays were made with a lot of help from the scheme but what jumped out at me is this guy was ALWAYS around the ball regardless. He has really good instincts. Physically he can probably use some fine tuning on his body but if he's already ahead of the curve mentally then they can hopefully maximize his physical tools. Jones doesn't really explode into opposing players and much as he lays into them if that makes sense, but he is a sound tackler and he has a nose for the ball. He gets the ball out. I have faith that the Steelers see enough in him that they feel they can maximize his talent. There are arrogant moments in coaching for sure, but taking a chance on a guy with his kind of production and instincts is not too much of a gamble to me. Jones needs to develop some more pass rushing moves though.....he uses his hands pretty well but he doesn't seem to set the edge too well and he overruns plays at times......but when he's locked in he's great. He's not a guy that looks like he won't take coaching. That's as important as anything.

[freak]

i hope hawtorne shine and beat out william gay

[Got Caught Steelin']

I was down on Jones until I watched some of his play. Georgia schemed up a TON of stuff for Jones and some of his plays were made with a lot of help from the scheme but what jumped out at me is this guy was ALWAYS around the ball regardless. He has really good instincts. Physically he can probably use some fine tuning on his body but if he's already ahead of the curve mentally then they can hopefully maximize his physical tools. Jones doesn't really explode into opposing players and much as he lays into them if that makes sense, but he is a sound tackler and he has a nose for the ball. He gets the ball out. I have faith that the Steelers see enough in him that they feel they can maximize his talent. There are arrogant moments in coaching for sure, but taking a chance on a guy with his kind of production and instincts is not too much of a gamble to me. Jones needs to develop some more pass rushing moves though.....he uses his hands pretty well but he doesn't seem to set the edge too well and he overruns plays at times......but when he's locked in he's great. He's not a guy that looks like he won't take coaching. That's as important as anything.

This was my sentiment, earlier. He finds the football. He shortens plays for QBs that like to extend them. He strips the ball ALOT. And I've seen him come from behind the QB to run guys down in the open field so he can't be that slow. HE NEVER QUITS. Relentlessness is it's own reward in this league, and our enemies will get tired of this guy coming after them down after down, quarter after quarter.

[Vader]

What about all of the ones drafted in the first round that didn't win the SB ? Just like I said and I will say it again it is a crap shoot. You fail to mention the Tim Couchs or the Ryan Leafs or JaMarcus Russels of the league for good one you name I can name a bust. It is the nature of the draft. No exact science some teams are better than others at it. I say we fall in the top ten of the league.

You can't be that daft? And you didn't mention the 100's of late round draft picks like Tim Ratty, Dennis Dixon, Tee Martin, ETC.. For every top pick you can name I'll name 3 late picks that failed. That is why QBs are taken HIGH. Is this really that hard to understand? You really think that QBs taken in the 6th round are just as likely to win the SB as QBs taken in the 1st round?

[SCSteeler4life]

You can't be that daft? And you didn't mention the 100's of late round draft picks like Tim Ratty, Dennis Dixon, Tee Martin, ETC.. For every top pick you can name I'll name 3 late picks that failed. That is why QBs are taken HIGH. Is this really that hard to understand? You really think that QBs taken in the 6th round are just as likely to win the SB as QBs taken in the 1st round?

You are missing my whole point. Doesn't matter what round you pick in. No matter how much you test and how much film you watch it is still a crap shoot. There is no proven formula. You can do all the work spend all of the time and money your team can afford and you might get a Tim Couch or you may get a Staubach or Brady. You don't know or I don't know that's my point you keep missing. We could have 5-6 future starters or have 0 starters.

[SCSteeler4life]

You can't be that daft? And you didn't mention the 100's of late round draft picks like Tim Ratty, Dennis Dixon, Tee Martin, ETC.. For every top pick you can name I'll name 3 late picks that failed. That is why QBs are taken HIGH. Is this really that hard to understand? You really think that QBs taken in the 6th round are just as likely to win the SB as QBs taken in the 1st round?

There have been 29 different QBs to win the SB 12 of them weren't drafted in the 1st round. 41% sounds like that crap shoot I have been talking about. Is that really that hard to understand ?

[Got Caught Steelin']

There have been 29 different QBs to win the SB 12 of them weren't drafted in the 1st round. 41% sounds like that crap shoot I have been talking about. Is that really that hard to understand ?

I would add that 1st rounders get more chances. Brady never starts in the NFL if No.1 Overall Bledsoe does not go down with injury.

So merely being a 1st round pick ups your chances of becoming the long term starter regardless of your ability level. Drew Brees anyone? Shitcanned way too quickly by the Chargers, and Rivers could never match his Saints production in SD.

[Vader]

There have been 29 different QBs to win the SB 12 of them weren't drafted in the 1st round. 41% sounds like that crap shoot I have been talking about. Is that really that hard to understand ?

I see stats aren't your strong suit. That means 61% of them were. That also doesn't take into account that testing has evolved so that the % is getting better. Again the last 8 SBs have had 7 1st round QB winners. What don't you understand about that? BTW Brady won 3 SB while on a cheating team. And you still continue to discount the number of late round QBs that don't make it. You just like looking at 1st round QBs that don't make it but you total disregard the late rounders that don't work out.

[Vader]

I would add that 1st rounders get more chances. Brady never starts in the NFL if No.1 Overall Bledsoe does not go down with injury.

So merely being a 1st round pick ups your chances of becoming the long term starter regardless of your ability level. Drew Brees anyone? Shitcanned way too quickly by the Chargers, and Rivers could never match his Saints production in SD.

Drew Brees was the 32st player taken in 2002. If the same number of teams were in the league then as now he would have been a 1st rounder.

The reason 1st rounders get more chances is that they generally have more upside. That's why they are 1st rounders. You talk about Drew Bledsoe and Brady. Ok Bledsoe was a very good QB. As a matter of fact they don't beat the Steelers in the 1st AFCC game with him when Brady got hurt. Anyway, Ben is getting older and Jones was taken in the 4th round this year (2 rounders higher than Brady). Do you want to give Jones Ben's spot? What would you do differently with Ben and Jones to make sure Jones isn't another Brady?

[TMC]

If you are going to draft a QB that dresses in this league, you better get one in the first or second round. First round QBs dress for 80 or more games 50% of the time. Second round QBs meet that number 44% of the time. When you hit the 3rd, that number drops 13% and never gets above that for the remaining rounds. As for finding Pro Bowl QBs, 42% of first round picks make the Pro Bowl. In the second, it is 33%. Drops to 13% in the third. For the remaining rounds it never climbs above 5%, except for the 6th round, which is propped up by Tom Brady.

You want a starting QB, the first round is where it is at. The second round will find some, but after that, it is long odds.

[tapeANaspirin2it]

OK, I'll try again.

Frankly, I don't think you've followed any of these players in the NFL. I have. I think you looked at the list of SEC sack leaders, didn't see an established superstar, and rolled with it. I'll shed some light.

Carlos Dunlap, as a rookie, played in 12 games and racked up 9.5 sacks. That's outstanding. In his second season, his sack total dipped to 4.5, but he was among the league leaders in QB hits and pressures. In fact, on the season, he graded out as Pro Football Focus' #5 4-3 DE. Also outstanding. Last year, he dipped to 6 sacks. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

Greg Hardy was drafted late (6th round), but quickly joined the Panthers' rotation. As a rookie, he had three sacks in very limited snaps. Last season, not only did he have 11 sacks, he graded out as the league's #8 4-3 DE, as he's stout vs. the run and the pass. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

Nick Fairley has struggled with injuries, but has been dominant on the field. Last season, he was graded as the #5 DT in all of football. That sounds good to me. If you think he's nothing at this point, you're not paying attention.

This was, relatively speaking, a weak, weak draft. Some of you expected Julius Peppers in his prime to be available at #17 of a very weak draft. This was a role player draft; if the worst-case scenario is that we got a great role player, then we did great. If we end up getting a Dunlap/Hardy/Fairley at that spot, then we struck gold.

I think you're missing the point. The point is people keep saying Jones had a lot of sacks and then they stress IN THE SEC, as if that is some guarantee that Jones essentially did it against NFL talent.

If you look at the top SEC sackers, they aren't great NFL players. Some have been pretty good, but not the impact players they were expected to be. If Jarvis Jones only produces to the level of the guys you pointed out, he'll be a disappointment as a 17th overall pick. That's they key. We're not talking about drafting a guy who may be a decent player. With the 17th pick you should be getting a solid starter, borderline pro bowler.

The whole point was to dispute the notion that SEC success = NFL success. That seems to be the argument those of us who dare question Jones keep hearing. He did it in the SEC so you better shut your mouth because that proves he's great.

[Got Caught Steelin']

Drew Brees was the 32st player taken in 2002. If the same number of teams were in the league then as now he would have been a 1st rounder.

The reason 1st rounders get more chances is that they generally have more upside. That's why they are 1st rounders. You talk about Drew Bledsoe and Brady. Ok Bledsoe was a very good QB. As a matter of fact they don't beat the Steelers in the 1st AFCC game with him when Brady got hurt. Anyway, Ben is getting older and Jones was taken in the 4th round this year (2 rounders higher than Brady). Do you want to give Jones Ben's spot? What would you do differently with Ben and Jones to make sure Jones isn't another Brady?

There are alot of assumptions in this post.

First of all, SD used their first round pick on Tomlinson, no1 overall. Even if there were 32 teams, SD would not have had another 1st round pick. So no, Brees would still be a second rounder.

Secondly, you seem to think I support drafting Landry. I don't. If any QB in this draft had to be taken it should have been Barkley in the 5th if available. As it happens he wasn't. But he's well suited to the role of career backup. Landry is a hit or miss guy. Plenty of talent, questionable college production. An underachiever. In the age of spread offenses, guys should be playing above their talent level, not below it.

[SCSteeler4life]

I see stats aren't your strong suit. That means 61% of them were. That also doesn't take into account that testing has evolved so that the % is getting better. Again the last 8 SBs have had 7 1st round QB winners. What don't you understand about that? BTW Brady won 3 SB while on a cheating team. And you still continue to discount the number of late round QBs that don't make it. You just like looking at 1st round QBs that don't make it but you total disregard the late rounders that don't work out.

12 out of 29 is not 61%. It's .413 or 41 % like I said didn't get drafted in the first round. I don't even remember what we started arguing about in the first place. I think the draft is a crap shoot and you don't. I believe that was the topic. Anyway let's hope the Steelers hit on at least 75% of there pics.

[Nocturnus]

No one is comparing anyone to anyone here. Dude told me that SEC sack leaders don't pan out in the pros, I named three recent ones who have. No comparison being made to Jones.


That is NOT what I said. You said they were "great" players. THEY ARE NOT. End of discussion.

[Vader]

12 out of 29 is not 61%. It's .413 or 41 % like I said didn't get drafted in the first round. I don't even remember what we started arguing about in the first place. I think the draft is a crap shoot and you don't. I believe that was the topic. Anyway let's hope the Steelers hit on at least 75% of there pics.

You said that 12 out of 29 (or 41%) of QBs that have won the SB were not 1st rounders. So I'm assuming that the rest (59%) of them were. Not sure where I got 61%. The bottom line for me is that if you do the math you'll see that 1st round QBs pan out better than late rounders. Even Drew Brees was a very high 2nd rounder. When you get past the 1st round and draft a QB the math says more of them bust. People remember the 1st round bust because the media hypes them. So when they fail everyone knows it. I remember Akili Smith but do you remember Mike Teel? How about Andrew Walter? How about Isaiah Stanbeck?

BTW go look at the 2007 draft where everyone talks about Russell being the huge bust. There are 14 pro-bowlers in the 1st round.... but there are only 15 the entire rest of the draft. And 4 of those come in the top 10 of the 2nd. So it isn't the crap shoot many want it to be. There is a reason why the FO's spend so much time and money evaluating the players.

[SCSteeler4life]

You said that 12 out of 29 (or 41%) of QBs that have won the SB were not 1st rounders. So I'm assuming that the rest (59%) of them were. Not sure where I got 61%. The bottom line for me is that if you do the math you'll see that 1st round QBs pan out better than late rounders. Even Drew Brees was a very high 2nd rounder. When you get past the 1st round and draft a QB the math says more of them bust. People remember the 1st round bust because the media hypes them. So when they fail everyone knows it. I remember Akili Smith but do you remember Mike Teel? How about Andrew Walter? How about Isaiah Stanbeck?

BTW go look at the 2007 draft where everyone talks about Russell being the huge bust. There are 14 pro-bowlers in the 1st round.... but there are only 15 the entire rest of the draft. And 4 of those come in the top 10 of the 2nd. So it isn't the crap shoot many want it to be. There is a reason why the FO's spend so much time and money evaluating the players.


I agree with you on the QBs in the modern era they need to be drafted early, the numbers prove that. But on most of the other positions I'm not sure if the numbers will say the same things, I believe it turn into more of the crap shoot no matter how much testing and film is studied. Good to have a nice discussion with different view points that doesn't turn into a bunch of name calling BS.

[dobre shunka]

Just the opposite actually. Every position, if you were to plot them, would slope downward by round. QB more than others, not because they're that much harder to project than other positions, but because of scarcity/demand/critical position/screaming desperation. Meaning, as a position they tend to get overdrafted by about a round, give or take. Least til the back end of the draft, where the position does comparatively well against league averages.

[fogdoctor]

I agree with you on the QBs in the modern era they need to be drafted early, the numbers prove that. But on most of the other positions I'm not sure if the numbers will say the same things, I believe it turn into more of the crap shoot no matter how much testing and film is studied. Good to have a nice discussion with different view points that doesn't turn into a bunch of name calling BS.

Its true for every position except kickers and punters and thats only because they tend not to get drafted. On average, getting drafted in the first 2 rounds is a very good predictor of success. Depending on your criteria for success (number of games played, started, pro bowls, etc.), its between 3 to 5 TIMES higher hit rate for all position (except K/P) in the first two rounds -vs- 3rd round or later.

[SCSteeler4life]

Its true for every position except kickers and punters and thats only because they tend not to get drafted. On average, getting drafted in the first 2 rounds is a very good predictor of success. Depending on your criteria for success (number of games played, started, pro bowls, etc.), its between 3 to 5 TIMES higher hit rate for all position (except K/P) in the first two rounds -vs- 3rd round or later.

What amazes me is how some teams never hit on those later round draft picks. This article breaks down the last 10 years of the draft. Thought it was pretty good not sure of the formula they used.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/decade-the-making-the-ultimate-nfl-draft-grades/2419/

THE VALEDICTORIAN
New England (A)
Pro Bowlers: 11 (2nd)
Draftees Active in 2010: 46 (t-3rd)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 7 (1st)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 22 (t-1st)
Best Pick: CB Asante Samuel (4th round, 2003)
Worst Pick: WR Chad Jackson (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: The Patriots got at least one impact player in each of their 10 drafts from 2001-2010, and maybe the biggest tribute to their ability to identify top talent is that all 10 of their No. 1 picks were still playing in the league last year along with 11 of their 14 No. 2s. This bodes well for 2011 draftees Nate Solder, Ras-I Dowling and Shane Vereen.

TEACHER'S PETS
Baltimore (A-)
Pro Bowlers: 8 (t-6th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 43 (8th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 4 (t-6th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 21 (t-4th)
Best Pick: S Ed Reed (No. 24 overall, 2002)
Worst Pick: DE Dan Cody (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: Much as the Patriots struck gold with Tom Brady and built wonderfully around him, Baltimore and Ozzie Newsome have done the same around Ray Lewis. While they're known for their attention to defense, they really set the stage for continued success with their offensive hits in 2007 and 2008 – linemen Marshall Yanda and Ben Grubbs, fullback Le'Ron McClain, QB Joe Flacco and tailback Ray Rice.

San Diego (A-)
Pro Bowlers: 12 (1st)
Draftees Active in 2010: 39 (t-15th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 3 (t-13th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 22 (t-1st)
Best Pick: QB Drew Brees (2nd round, 2001)
Worst Pick: WR Craig Davis (1st round, 2007)

Summary: Although their last three draft classes have yet to really develop, the Chargers had one of the great draft runs of all time from 2004-07 under A.J. Smith, and they certainly got the better of the Eli Manning-Philip Rivers swap, at least in terms of statistical production. If Charlie Whitehurst is the starter in Seattle next year, they can boast of having picked three NFL starting QBs this decade (Drew Brees being the other). They've had almost no huge misses, and a whole lot of hits.

New York Giants (A-)
Pro Bowlers: 9 (t-6th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 42 (t-9th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 4 (t-4th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 20 (t-6th)
Best Pick: OL David Diehi (5th round, 2003)
Worst Pick: WR Sinorice Moss (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: The Giants have excelled at finding defensive linemen in the draft the past 10 years, but they haven't had nearly as much luck with linebackers. They drafted 10 of them in the decade and none of them were really hits (pending the continued growth of MLB Jonathan Goff, who started all 16 games last year).

THE OVERACHIEVERS
Atlanta (B+)
Pro Bowlers: 6 (t-16th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 42 (t-9th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 5 (t-2nd)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 22 (t-1st)
Best Pick: QB Matt Schaub (3rd round, 2004)
Worst Pick: CB Jimmy Williams (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: The Falcons drafted three Pro Bowlers at QB (Schaub, Michael Vick, Matt Ryan), plus Roddy White and Alge Crumpler, but are still looking for an impact pass rusher – of their 13 picks on the defensive line, no one has more than 18 career sacks.

Indianapolis (B+)
Pro Bowlers: 8 (t-6th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 41 (14th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 4 (t-4th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 16 (t-17th)
Best Pick: DE Robert Mathis (5th round, 2003)
Worst Pick: T Tony Ugoh (2nd round, 2007)

Summary: Bill Polian has had success all across the board for the Colts, and when his top picks have been clunkers (a rarity), he's made up for it with lower-round success. About the only knock is that Colts draftees have found limited success when signing with other teams, which suggests that Peyton Manning and a great system make up for a lot of shortcomings, but the same could be said of the Patriots.

Philadelphia (B+)
Pro Bowlers: 7 (t-14th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 45 (t-5th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 2 (t-17th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 19 (t-9th)
Best Pick: DE Trent Cole (5th round, 2005)
Worst Pick: DE Jerome McDougle (1st round, 2003)

Summary: The Eagles didn't draft a bona fide star in the first round all decade, but they have had as many steals later in the draft as anybody. They also deserve a lot of credit for covering the running back position in glory for a full decade without a draftee in the top 50 (Brian Westbrook, LeSean McCoy, Correll Buckhalter).

THE SOLID STUDENTS
Carolina (B)
Pro Bowlers: 8 (t-6th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 47 (2nd)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 5 (t-2nd)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 15 (t-20th)
Best Pick: WR Steve Smith (3rd round, 2001)
Worst Pick: RB Eric Shelton (2nd round, 2005)

Summary: The Panthers had as many good picks as any team in the 2000s ... so why did they manage to go under .500 for the decade? It probably has something to do with their five QB picks (Chris Weinke, Stefan Lefors, Randy Fasani, Tony Pike, Jimmy Clausen), none of whom were drafted above No. 48 and none of whom worked out. Cam Newton may or may not be the answer, but it's a step in the right direction.

Pittsburgh (B)
Pro Bowlers: 9 (t-4th)
Draftees Active in 2010: 35 (25th)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 3 (t-13th)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 18 (t-11th)
Best Pick: S Troy Polamalu (No. 16 overall, 2003)
Worst Pick: LB Alonzo Jackson (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: The Steelers had the best group of first-round picks in the decade, with two likely Hall of Famers (Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Polamalu) along with stars like Maurkice Pouncey, Santonio Holmes, Laurence Timmons, Rashard Mendenhall, Heath Miller and Casey Hampton. They were also one of the least successful in rounds three through seven, interesting since they have such a sharp eye for top talent

[TMC]

The draft almost always does better the higher you draft. There are a few exceptions, but it usually boils down to the high the position is drafted, the better your odds of getting a better player. Of course, that does not mean you should simply plug in a position because it does not work that way, but if you evaluate the talent correctly, your higher picks have better odds.

The issues arise in the evaluation. You have to attempt to project if a player has physically matured, if he can improve from the skill set he has, if he can grasp it mentally, if he plays with the desire, if, if, if. Some over achieve. Some have peaked and just cannot get any better. Some do not fit certain schemes. That is where the projection and speculation falls in place. Teams that draft well tend to find players that fit them and transition better.

[tapeANaspirin2it]

There are alot of assumptions in this post.

First of all, SD used their first round pick on Tomlinson, no1 overall. Even if there were 32 teams, SD would not have had another 1st round pick. So no, Brees would still be a second rounder.

Secondly, you seem to think I support drafting Landry. I don't. If any QB in this draft had to be taken it should have been Barkley in the 5th if available. As it happens he wasn't. But he's well suited to the role of career backup. Landry is a hit or miss guy. Plenty of talent, questionable college production. An underachiever. In the age of spread offenses, guys should be playing above their talent level, not below it.

San Diego traded the #1 overall to Atlanta who picked Vick. The Chargers took Tomlinson at the falcons #5 pick and also received the Falcons first pick in round 2 which they used on Brees with the 32nd overall pick.

The Chargers made the trade with the intention of landing both Tomlinson and Brees. It's a good bet the Chargers would have traded up to get him if needed. That was a terrible QB draft. Aside from Vick and Brees, the only other QB drafted that was anything at all was AJ Feeley in the 5th. The Cowboys traded up to get Quincy Carter in rd 2 because the pickings were so slim and because Jerry has no idea what he's doing.

It's really semantics anyway because the point was that Brees was a 1st round talent and the 32nd pick would be a 1st rounder today.

[jitter77]

First of all I really dont believe in workout (combine) numbers. Some people just work out well or are exceptional athletes, but that doesnt mean it translates to the football field. I know there are some things you can look at but to draft or not draft a player based on combine numbers doesnt make sense to me. With that being said, I dont know a thing about Jones other than what I have read on here.

What I dont understand is if Jones really is a one trick pony, and had bad combine numbers, then why is that guy a consensus round 1 pick by most scouts / draft experts. Pro scouts and "experts" would not rate this guy so highly just because he led the SEC in sacks or has a high motor. The way people talk on here is he is a 4th / 5th round talent at best. I am trying ti figure out why there is such a gap.

[CorpusDsteelers]

First of all I really dont believe in workout (combine) numbers. Some people just work out well or are exceptional athletes, but that doesnt mean it translates to the football field. I know there are some things you can look at but to draft or not draft a player based on combine numbers doesnt make sense to me. With that being said, I dont know a thing about Jones other than what I have read on here.

What I dont understand is if Jones really is a one trick pony, and had bad combine numbers, then why is that guy a consensus round 1 pick by most scouts / draft experts. Pro scouts and "experts" would not rate this guy so highly just because he led the SEC in sacks or has a high motor. The way people talk on here is he is a 4th / 5th round talent at best. I am trying ti figure out why there is such a gap.

Well the reason is haters hate and Philly Phans move onto the steelers band wagon year after year!

[TMC]

First of all I really dont believe in workout (combine) numbers. Some people just work out well or are exceptional athletes, but that doesnt mean it translates to the football field. I know there are some things you can look at but to draft or not draft a player based on combine numbers doesnt make sense to me. With that being said, I dont know a thing about Jones other than what I have read on here.

What I dont understand is if Jones really is a one trick pony, and had bad combine numbers, then why is that guy a consensus round 1 pick by most scouts / draft experts. Pro scouts and "experts" would not rate this guy so highly just because he led the SEC in sacks or has a high motor. The way people talk on here is he is a 4th / 5th round talent at best. I am trying ti figure out why there is such a gap.

The NFL scouts do not divulge where they rate a player and all it takes is one team to fall in love with a guy. Ryan Leaf was the 2nd pick overall. In hindsight, would you give a 2nd round pick for Leaf?

Again, Jones has some things to like. Good motor, hard worker. He plays the run well enough, at least he is stout at the point of attack. But, he is not a well developed pass rusher. He has injury concerns. He did not show great strength or burst in his combine numbers. People can discount combine numbers all the like, but the truth is it can point out players that did not put in the time in the weight room and the odds are those players will struggle. It is sheer numbers. You are going against the odds when you take those players that high.

I had Jones rated as a second round guy. I do not think he would have lasted to our 2nd round pick. I think they overpaid to get him. Simple as that.

[Idioteque]

The NFL scouts do not divulge where they rate a player and all it takes is one team to fall in love with a guy. Ryan Leaf was the 2nd pick overall. In hindsight, would you give a 2nd round pick for Leaf?

Again, Jones has some things to like. Good motor, hard worker. He plays the run well enough, at least he is stout at the point of attack. But, he is not a well developed pass rusher. He has injury concerns. He did not show great strength or burst in his combine numbers. People can discount combine numbers all the like, but the truth is it can point out players that did not put in the time in the weight room and the odds are those players will struggle. It is sheer numbers. You are going against the odds when you take those players that high.

I had Jones rated as a second round guy. I do not think he would have lasted to our 2nd round pick. I think they overpaid to get him. Simple as that.

It's because of these qualities that I'd like to see Jones moved inside. His mediocre pass rush ability would be hidden a la Timmons as he faces guards, centers, and running backs instead of tackles.

[dobre shunka]

So, is hiding him inside as a way to compensate for those flaws really the best use of the 17th pick in the draft? Fine enough strategy for some players, as I've heard you can't have probowlers at every position. But I'd think, at least initially, most are hoping/expecting more than some guy you have to hide to compensate for.

At least at OLB the 4.9 isn't as bad, since it's not like you see them in trail on a TE down the seam. They just need to be fast enough to drop into the flats, or chase down a play backside. And those are down the list of prerequisites for OLB. At ILB you need better speed. We can pretend Foote is competent in coverage, but he's not. Even. Close. They firezone blitzed the shit out of him last year because he's a liability in coverage. That means one or both of their OLBs are dropping more into coverage. That was a gimpy Harrison and a fat and gimpy Woodley. And I'm not sure I'd want someone with his neck plugging holes/RBs. At OLB he isn't squaring up and lowering his pads. It's more move and angle collisions. He's gonna take a lot more full on neck compressions inside. Humpal had a history of stingers at Iowa, they drafted him anyways and plugged him inside. I don't think he got out of his first camp before a stinger ended his career. Hopefully they learned something from that. And all this is before we get to the most critical element of this, who calls it? Who's the buck. At this point, it's clearly not Timmons. I think even the most ardent Timmons supporter has given up the Farrior heir-apparent argument. Jones does have some traits. Vocal, leader, captain. Tho that could just as well be a 'man among boys' sorta thing, given his age. Instinctive, but questionable intelligence. Wonderlic 16. Maybe he's football smart like Pouncey. Aside from age, many of the same things could be said of him. Dunno, but he's got a longer way to prove it first. Still, it remains that you'd be moving a guy inside to compensate for the flaws he has outside, only to introduce more/different set of flaws inside. Out of the frying pan and into the fire, so to speak.

[fedderone]

There are alot of assumptions in this post.

First of all, SD used their first round pick on Tomlinson, no1 overall. Even if there were 32 teams, SD would not have had another 1st round pick. So no, Brees would still be a second rounder.

Secondly, you seem to think I support drafting Landry. I don't. If any QB in this draft had to be taken it should have been Barkley in the 5th if available. As it happens he wasn't. But he's well suited to the role of career backup. Landry is a hit or miss guy. Plenty of talent, questionable college production. An underachiever. In the age of spread offenses, guys should be playing above their talent level, not below it.

Just for clarification, Michael Vick was #1 overall in that draft.
SD traded #1 overall to Atlanta for players and picks, moved back to #5 overall in the first, and picked Tomlinson.

[jitter77]

The NFL scouts do not divulge where they rate a player and all it takes is one team to fall in love with a guy. Ryan Leaf was the 2nd pick overall. In hindsight, would you give a 2nd round pick for Leaf?

Again, Jones has some things to like. Good motor, hard worker. He plays the run well enough, at least he is stout at the point of attack. But, he is not a well developed pass rusher. He has injury concerns. He did not show great strength or burst in his combine numbers. People can discount combine numbers all the like, but the truth is it can point out players that did not put in the time in the weight room and the odds are those players will struggle. It is sheer numbers. You are going against the odds when you take those players that high.

I had Jones rated as a second round guy. I do not think he would have lasted to our 2nd round pick. I think they overpaid to get him. Simple as that.

I know what your saying about Leaf, but I think that he and Manning were neck and neck that year on most draft boards. Kinda like Luck vs RG III last year. I don't think anyone predicted that Leaf would turn into what he turned into. As far as I can remember at least Leaf had good game tape and measureables.

I am just trying to figure out why people are rating jones so high . He has a serious medical condition, is slow, poor pass rusher, and not big or really strong. Even the second round seems very high for a guy who has very few good qualities. Lattimore would have probably been a top 10 pick w/o his injury and he slid to the 4th? round. With Jones's condition and other poor attributes, I just don't see how he was rated high by anyone.

[SCSteeler4life]

I know what your saying about Leaf, but I think that he and Manning were neck and neck that year on most draft boards. Kinda like Luck vs RG III last year. I don't think anyone predicted that Leaf would turn into what he turned into. As far as I can remember at least Leaf had good game tape and measureables.

I am just trying to figure out why people are rating jones so high . He has a serious medical condition, is slow, poor pass rusher, and not big or really strong. Even the second round seems very high for a guy who has very few good qualities. Lattimore would have probably been a
top 10 pick w/o his injury and he slid to the 4th? round. With Jones's condition and other poor attributes, I just don't see how he was rated high by anyone.


He was cleared by all the Dr.'s that looked at him. He was rated so high because he is a great football player. At one time Kiper had him number one. I personally would have rather had one of the top CB's. But he is ours now and I hope he has a great career.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

As long as his (supposedly 'mild' or 'mild-moderate') cervical stenosis remains stable for the next 12 years (while he is in the NFL) and it does not progress to the point he has significant cord impingement (or mild cord compression) then that bullet is dodged.

I'm most upset at hearing he doesn't like to workout... Will be interesting to see how he pans out. At least Ziggy likes to workout. I wonder if Ziggy will improve this year. I guess nobody will be like Aaron Smith in his prime, dame!! Woodley better be doing deadlifts, inverse leg curls, and leg curls... and lots of stretching/flexibility afterwards.

[Punxsutawney]

Bottom line: Jones looks like a DB and runs like a.DL. Celebrate at your own risk.

[Wingman]

Bottom line: Jones looks like a DB and runs like a.DL. Celebrate at your own risk.
Great post seems like it sums up everything negative about this kid. I do hope my disappointment in this selection turns out to be unfounded as I really want the team to do well but this one had my wtf meter pegged when I heard it. I was unrealistically hoping Cooper would fall to us.

[Steelers1356]

If Jarvis Jones did a 40 time of 4.75 during trainings with the Steelers many people in the forum would just start to love him. That's from where most of the hate comes I think

In the past he's been timed in the low 4.7s which is more in line with his game tape, I have my doubts that his 4.9 pro day is legit, heard he was effected by a bad hamstring. The question is what would've made this team better, Worilds at OLB with Eifert and Bell on offense, or Jones and Bell with no Eifert? Whether or not it was a wasted pick is going to come down to Jones being far superior to Worilds and immediately beating him out for the starting OLB position. If Worilds gets the nod then Jones sits on the bench when we could've possibly had a big offensive weapon in Eifert. I have to think the front office believes Jones is a special elite pass rusher who is far superior to Worlids and ready to step in immediately to justify his 1st round selection and pass on other players. We'll know soon enough if they're right.

[stillwright]

That's just it though. Our rookies on defense just don't step in and start. Just doesn't happen with a LeBeau defense.

[STEELERS R GR8]

That's just it though. Our rookies on defense just don't step in and start. Just doesn't happen with a LeBeau defense.

This is true but a few things, in the last interview Tomlin talks about the rookies having to step right in and the other thing is we have lost so much talent and have not really done anything in fa this might just be the year the rookies have to play. jmo.

[fogdoctor]

If Jarvis Jones did a 40 time of 4.75 during trainings with the Steelers many people in the forum would just start to love him. That's from where most of the hate comes I think

At 245lbs and the SEC sack leader? Love begins at close to 4.5. Like is 4.6. Respectable 4.7.

For example, Patrick Willis is a player I loved.

[obx steeler]

One advantage Jones may have is that he is the first true 3-4 olb we have drafted in my memory. I'd expect him to be a situational pass rusher in his first year. Also many people who think it is just between he and Worilds forget how badly Woodley has performed the last 2 years.

[Idioteque]

One advantage Jones may have is that he is the first true 3-4 olb we have drafted in my memory. I'd expect him to be a situational pass rusher in his first year. Also many people who think it is just between he and Worilds forget how badly Woodley has performed the last 2 years.

But I don't think players are allowed to learn, grow, etc. in the NFL.

When you draft a guy, you get his YouTube footage and that's it.

[antdrewjosh]

Next best pass-rusher: Mingo or*Jones?


The last two linebackers to win NFL Defensive Player of the Year came from AFC North. James Harrison of the Pittsburgh Steelers received the honor in 2008, and Terrell Suggs of the Baltimore Ravens followed him in 2011.

Who's the next great pass-rusher in the division? Look no further than the first round of this year's NFL draft. The Cleveland Browns selected LSU's Barkevious Mingo with the No. 6 overall pick, and the Steelers chose Georgia's Jarvis Jones at No. 17.

If you're asking which one is the better pass-rusher, you'll need to be more specific. Jones is the better pass-rusher right now. Mingo has the potential to be the better one in four years.

Jones led the nation with 14.5 sacks in 2012 despite missing two games. He can step into Harrison's spot immediately. Mingo is freakishly athletic with an explosive first step and exceptional closing speed. He could be the next Jevon Kearse.

Comparing Mingo and Jones will continue throughout their careers. They both played in the Southeastern Conference. They both have major questions to answer about whether they can last in the NFL. And they both ended up on AFC North rivals who are within a 2.5-hour drive of each other.

[+] Enlarge

Derick E. Hingle/USA TODAY Sports
Barkevious Mingo played in a 4-3 defense at LSU but will have to adjust to Ray Horton's 3-4 scheme.
"The difference is Jones may have already maxed out his ability to get to the quarterback while Mingo is just scratching the surface," said Steve Muench of Scouts Inc.

Whatever your thoughts about where Mingo and Jones stand in their development, they were the perfect picks for their teams. Every move the Browns make is with an eye to the future. That became clear when Cleveland traded two of this year's seven draft picks for ones in 2014. Mingo is that unpolished playmaker who can grow with the Browns defense.

The Browns are making the transition from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4 scheme, which is exactly what Mingo will be doing. He'll be switching from a college defensive end to an NFL outside linebacker. He'll need time to add the upper-body strength needed to get off blocks. At 237 pounds, he looks more like a cross between a wide receiver and tight end than a linebacker.

Cleveland doesn't have to rush Mingo because it has Paul Kruger, Jabaal Sheard and Quentin Groves. The hope is Mingo will develop into a dominant pass-rusher by the time more pieces are in place. He has the height (6-foot-4), wingspan, agility and competitive attitude to become a special player.

The biggest knocks on Mingo are he’s a workout wonder and his college production didn't warrant a top-10 pick. Mingo had only 4.5 sacks last season at LSU and just 12.5 over his past two seasons. But he did record 28 total pressures in 2012 (hurries and knockdowns), which tied him for second in the SEC.

"One of the things you look at is not just sack totals, but disrupting, affecting and putting pressure on the quarterback," Browns coach Rob Chudzinski said. "As you watch games and you study him, he had a lot of snaps where he did that, and it wasn’t necessarily equating to sacks but the pressures on the quarterback, the batted balls, just making quarterbacks step up, slide and have to throw on the move. He had a number of those."

When it came to choosing between Mingo and Jones, Cleveland didn't think there was a decision. In hindsight, the Browns could have had Jones and two additional picks (in the second and seventh rounds) if they traded down to No. 16 with the St. Louis Rams. Cleveland refused because Mingo was one of four blue-chippers that team officials had identified.

After the Browns selected Mingo at No. 6, the next pass-rusher drafted was Jones, 11 spots later. Mingo acknowledged he was surprised that Jones fell so far in the first round.

"But the coaches here obviously knew what they wanted in a player and as a person," Mingo said. "I think they made the right decision, obviously, and I’m just thrilled to be here.”

The Steelers were equally thrilled to see Jones at their spot. Pittsburgh needed a pass-rusher who can provide instant results because its defense is built to win now. Three of the four starting defensive backs are 32 years old or older: cornerback Ike Taylor and safeties Troy Polamalu and Ryan Clark. Two of the three starting defensive linemen are entering the final years of their contracts: defensive ends Brett Keisel and Ziggy Hood.

[+] Enlarge

Kevin Liles/US Presswire
Jarvis Jones led the nation in sacks last season at Georgia with 14.5.
Unlike Mingo, there's less of a learning curve with Jones. He played outside linebacker in a pro-style 3-4 scheme at Georgia, and he talked about recognizing familiar concepts while flipping through the Steelers' playbook last weekend. Jones led the SEC with 31 quarterback pressures and had 15 hurries (defined as a play where the quarterback was flushed out of the pocket or hurried his throw due to pressure), the most of any draft-eligible prospect.

"He is a violent hand fighter who can beat offensive linemen one-on-one," Muench said. "He is relentless, and even though he didn’t run well at his pro day, he closes well on tape. He’ll make an impact at the next level if he can stay healthy."

That's the key -- staying healthy. Jones transferred from Southern California after the 2009 season because doctors wouldn't clear him to play. They diagnosed him with spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the spinal column. It's a condition that has shortened the careers of top players, including offensive tackle Marcus McNeill, who retired after six seasons.

"We're very comfortable with his medical status or we wouldn't have made that pick," Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert said.

So who will be the better pass-rusher? It depends on your point of view. Jones will be delivering more hits on Joe Flacco and Andy Dalton this season, but Mingo may end up with more career hits. In the end, the Steelers and Browns got the players they wanted. It's up to Jones and Mingo to prove their teams were right.

[Litos]

I think the Browns fumbled with that draft pick

[antdrewjosh]

Reportedly the Steelers were very high on Mingo also.

[Litos]

Reportedly the Steelers were very high on Mingo also.

but at #6?

[antdrewjosh]

They're the Browns LOL. It would of been interesting to see the Steelers decision if both would of been on the board. Potential vs Production. Mingo having to learn to play outside linebacker vs Jones already having experience playing the position. Mingo workout warrior no medical issues vs Jones less then stellar combine and spinal issue.

[antdrewjosh]

Hopefully the the curse that is the Browns work in our favor again and Jones is a beast and Mingo doesn't work out for them.

[dobre shunka]

but at #6?

If they were picking 6th, yeah maybe. Colbert said there were only 6 to 8 really special players in this draft. And the top 6 players on their board were (not in order): a WR, 2 OTs, a safety, and 2 OLBs. Dunno who those two OLBs were. Can assume one was Jones, given how they ran their pick in. Other one might be Mingo. Dunno who they rated higher, Jones or the other OLB. But when they transfer their positional board over to their master board, those 6 would populate their first 6 picks.

Here is a pic from this year's warroom:

http://prod.images.steelers.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/STEELERS/assets/images/imported/PIT/photos/clubimages/2013/04-April/temp2013_Draft_0425_0012--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.JPG?width=960&height=720

WR is Column 4 on the beige wall, right grid. OT is C8, S is C10, and OLB is C11.

*****edit: Actually, Jones is confirmed one of those top 2 OLB. Since the next OLB on their board is 30some spots down, Jones couldn't possibly be the #3+ OLB on their board. Has to be top 2, top 6 overall. Still don't know who the other OLB is or who was #1 or #2. Besides Mingo, Ansah and Jordan possibly even Werner could potentially be the other OLB.

[diver5]

In the past he's been timed in the low 4.7s which is more in line with his game tape, I have my doubts that his 4.9 pro day is legit, heard he was effected by a bad hamstring. The question is what would've made this team better, Worilds at OLB with Eifert and Bell on offense, or Jones and Bell with no Eifert? Whether or not it was a wasted pick is going to come down to Jones being far superior to Worilds and immediately beating him out for the starting OLB position. If Worilds gets the nod then Jones sits on the bench when we could've possibly had a big offensive weapon in Eifert. I have to think the front office believes Jones is a special elite pass rusher who is far superior to Worlids and ready to step in immediately to justify his 1st round selection and pass on other players. We'll know soon enough if they're right.

I think you have to look at Eifert in the context of the Steelers QB. On paper and in the wish world, Eifert looks great. However, Ben goes through long stretches in which he seems to forget about the TE. I just think if Miller is healthy next year Eifert is a glorified tackle, unless the QB changes his thinking. We all tend to think that if they got Eifert, all of the sudden it'll be like Brady with Gronk and Hernandez. Hell, I'd like to think that. But Ben just isn't that type of QB.

[USDA#1]

can't help but wondering.....whatever the diabolical Dr. LeBeau had in mind for Spence....maybe that's something they're looking at for Jones....

fairly similar measurables, with Jones being a little heavier.

I could be wrong.

[ark steel]

I think you have to look at Eifert in the context of the Steelers QB. On paper and in the wish world, Eifert looks great. However, Ben goes through long stretches in which he seems to forget about the TE. I just think if Miller is healthy next year Eifert is a glorified tackle, unless the QB changes his thinking. We all tend to think that if they got Eifert, all of the sudden it'll be like Brady with Gronk and Hernandez. Hell, I'd like to think that. But Ben just isn't that type of QB.

This is all true, except with Miller and Eifert in at the same time, the D would have to worry which one of them is the glorified tackle.

Every year, I hope we start to throw more to the TE. Last year, it seemed as if I was getting that wish.

[antdrewjosh]

Jones is an OLB only. He will play outside. He will not be moved inside.

[SteelerinMD]

Why all the hate? Because he was drafted by the Steelers. Everyone knows better and opinions are facts. Not to mention can all predict future ability.

[Steelers1356]

I think you have to look at Eifert in the context of the Steelers QB. On paper and in the wish world, Eifert looks great. However, Ben goes through long stretches in which he seems to forget about the TE.

I think that all changed last year with Haley, we saw greater production out of Miller. My expectation is that Jones comes in this year and is a dominating force on defense far and greater then Worilds will ever be, and that the result is a dominating pass rush that makes up for not choosing a mid 1st round offensive weapon. That means Jones steps in and substantially improves the pass rush right away. If he gives you the same skills as Worilds then why make the pick? If Worilds turns out to be as good or better than Jones then the FO is doing a poor job recognizing talent ahead of time and wasting picks as a result. Mid 1st round picks should be about selecting the right player you need to improve the teams performance. So the point is I'm expecting big things out of Jones this season, pulling for the kid and hoping the FO is right in seeing something very special about him.

[SteelerinMD]

I always love how we blast our own players as opposing teams are worried about Jones. Ravens fans like the pick, not for us, but think we will wreck havoc in the AFCN. Ravens put every guy wearing purple on a pedestal as if they are the best, SN rips them down as much as they can and continues to kick


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=118&f=1666&t=11512743

[skialta]

well...
why didn't you say so?
ravens fans like him? well shit.
so what?

[Vader]

I always love how we blast our own players as opposing teams are worried about Jones. Ravens fans like the pick, not for us, but think we will wreck havoc in the AFCN. Ravens put every guy wearing purple on a pedestal as if they are the best, SN rips them down as much as they can and continues to kick


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=118&f=1666&t=11512743

You remember when Ben was picked? The board went crazy because we finally had our franchise QB after years of Kordell and Kent Graham type players. IMHO this board is very realistic instead of just a bunch of pom pom wavers. IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.

[SteelerinMD]

well...
why didn't you say so?
ravens fans like him? well shit.
so what?

Bottom line: nobody can HATE on the Steelers and their organization top to bottom more than STEELER NATION

[fogdoctor]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vader again.

10 Characters.

[deljzc]

You remember when Ben was picked? The board went crazy because we finally had our franchise QB after years of Kordell and Kent Graham type players. IMHO this board is very realistic instead of just a bunch of pom pom wavers. IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.

I kind of felt this way about our first three picks in this year's draft.

[deljzc]

You remember when Ben was picked? The board went crazy because we finally had our franchise QB after years of Kordell and Kent Graham type players. IMHO this board is very realistic instead of just a bunch of pom pom wavers. IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.

I kind of felt this way about our first three picks in this year's draft.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.


Me see turnovers, Me see Jones make lots of turnovers, Me like, Me must have Jones.

[deljzc]

I think for the reasons Vader mentions, this is really a make or break draft for the Colbert/Tomlin marriage.

We can look at the 2008 failure and say that was growing pains. Tomlin was still getting his feet wet, the draft fell very odd that year, etc. Even the last couple of drafts seem more defined by re-stocking the trenches and foundation of the team, not really looking for that defining superstar.

But this year has no excuses. We REALLY looked hard at the guys we drafted. We checked and double-checked each pick (not for instance like Mendenhall, whom we barely checked).

If this draft falls flat and underachieves, there is no excuse. The only reason will be poor player evaluation.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

[STEELERS R GR8]

You remember when Ben was picked? The board went crazy because we finally had our franchise QB after years of Kordell and Kent Graham type players. IMHO this board is very realistic instead of just a bunch of pom pom wavers. IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.

I agree with the healh issues but I could care less about the pro day and measurables. What my concerns are is how weak he looked on film which I hope getting in to a nfl weight room will fix. I was not in favor of the pick but have stuck up for it on here, I trust our front office and how they see talent. For the record I liked the Bell, Wheaton, and Thomas picks a lot, and what I have read about Hawthorne, Williams and Brown makes me happy. I am holding on and hoping this is the draft we strike it rich.....Keeping my fingers crossed!!!!!

[diver5]

I think that all changed last year with Haley, we saw greater production out of Miller. My expectation is that Jones comes in this year and is a dominating force on defense far and greater then Worilds will ever be, and that the result is a dominating pass rush that makes up for not choosing a mid 1st round offensive weapon. That means Jones steps in and substantially improves the pass rush right away. If he gives you the same skills as Worilds then why make the pick? If Worilds turns out to be as good or better than Jones then the FO is doing a poor job recognizing talent ahead of time and wasting picks as a result. Mid 1st round picks should be about selecting the right player you need to improve the teams performance. So the point is I'm expecting big things out of Jones this season, pulling for the kid and hoping the FO is right in seeing something very special about him.

I'm not crazy about the Jones pick. However, whatever happens with Worilds, he is a FA next year. So I can see why they made the pick. I don't know that I would have been that crazy about any player they picked after Cooper went off the board. I was pretty sure he wouldn't last, but I was hoping. I just like the idea of guards that can move.

I guess I am a bit down on the QB right now, so Eifert wouldn't have excited me that much. I just don't think the QB would use the talent. I just don't see him changing at 31. I am grateful to him for giving us some great football and winning 2 more SBs. I just think on some level when we look back at his career there will be a little bit of "what could have been." If he would just tweak his game a bit. Kinda like Favre, if he would have just stopped throwing the stupid pick.

[Vader]

I think for the reasons Vader mentions, this is really a make or break draft for the Colbert/Tomlin marriage.

We can look at the 2008 failure and say that was growing pains. Tomlin was still getting his feet wet, the draft fell very odd that year, etc. Even the last couple of drafts seem more defined by re-stocking the trenches and foundation of the team, not really looking for that defining superstar.

But this year has no excuses. We REALLY looked hard at the guys we drafted. We checked and double-checked each pick (not for instance like Mendenhall, whom we barely checked).

If this draft falls flat and underachieves, there is no excuse. The only reason will be poor player evaluation.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

I see it that way as well. It seems the past few years they are drafting solid type players but that isn't going to get it done. Just think about the this: How much do the Steelers value their own draft picks? Worilds is a FA so is Hood, Mendy was allowed to leave, Lewis was allowed to leave as well. To me it says something when the team that drafted you don't care if you come back or not. The recent drafts are so putrid that the Steelers don't care if they lose them or not. And some of these guys are 1st round picks like Hood and mendy.

[deljzc]

This off-season isn't over yet (so we could still extend Worilds, Sanders and/or Hood), but I agree with that too Vader. It used to be clockwork around here that when a rookie entered either the last year of his rookie contract or the RFA year, you heard a lot of talk about extensions.

We've not had 2nd contracts with Holmes, Spaeth, Mendenhall, Mundy, Lewis, Urbik, Wallace... that's a lot of your supposed draft "hits" from 2006-2009 that aren't contributing to the team in their prime years.

And Hood, Worilds and Sanders are possibly going to be added to that list.

It's a disturbing trend.

[Acereros]

I always love how we blast our own players as opposing teams are worried about Jones. Ravens fans like the pick, not for us, but think we will wreck havoc in the AFCN. Ravens put every guy wearing purple on a pedestal as if they are the best, SN rips them down as much as they can and continues to kick


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=118&f=1666&t=11512743

As some stupid people on this board would say: If you don't like how we in the SN rip or own draft picks, go and follow the Ravens..........(sarcasm off)

[Vader]

This off-season isn't over yet (so we could still extend Worilds, Sanders and/or Hood), but I agree with that too Vader. It used to be clockwork around here that when a rookie entered either the last year of his rookie contract or the RFA year, you heard a lot of talk about extensions.

We've not had 2nd contracts with Holmes, Spaeth, Mendenhall, Mundy, Lewis, Urbik, Wallace... that's a lot of your supposed draft "hits" from 2006-2009 that aren't contributing to the team in their prime years.

And Hood, Worilds and Sanders are possibly going to be added to that list.

It's a disturbing trend.

Exactly. I even liked Wallace but his obvious intent of finding the most money he could made him unsignable. So I don't fault the Steelers for letting him walk. I understand the Holmes issue as well. But Spaeth, Mendy, Mundy, Urbik etc... appear to be just bad draft picks. Average to below average players. If Hood leaves or is replaced then you have 2 first round picks not even on the team just in one contract term.

[fogdoctor]

Honestly, I thought Hood would be awesome in the NFL. I loved that pick.

Clearly, its not looking good for awesome.

[BermudaSteel]

You remember when Ben was picked? The board went crazy because we finally had our franchise QB after years of Kordell and Kent Graham type players. IMHO this board is very realistic instead of just a bunch of pom pom wavers. IF Jones didn't have a medical issue, horrible pro day, and bad measurables I'm sure more people would be on board. I actually like a few of the draft picks this year but I don't understand taking Jones at 17 overall. What is more bothersome is that I know the Steelers would have taken him in the top 6 if they were drafting that high. Even with all the red flags they seem oblivious to anything except what they want to see.

All dis smart talk makes one's head hurted...

[Lloydsforearm]

I don't hate the guy personally, just the FO that made him pick 17: A few nuggets from the Rotoworld praise-fest that bear further scrutiny:

"He scared some evaluators with an early-career spinal condition...". BTW, the spinal condition didn't just magically heal itself, he still has spinal stenosis. He was advised by a major college program not to play football again - at the college level. I wonder how this will translate to the rough and tumble from the NFL?

"...and 4.92 forty time..": This is a time for a fast lineman, not an edge rusher, which I assume is what he is expected to be.

"Although slightly undersized...": Translation: Needs to bulk up for the NFL.

Bottom line: With the personnel losses we have had, we needed a starter in the first round. If he has to wait on the bench for a year or two to learn the system and/or get physically ready for the NFL, then we have maybe two good years - unless he is injured. Welcome Huey Richardson II to the team.

Suggs ran the same 40 time. I think he is an OK pass rusher. This guy is no Huey Richardson. He will be a play maker and the newest generation of excellent Steeler OLBs. But if he takes two years to see the field, I will also be pissed. VERY. Of course, if he does start this year, it will mean our 2nd round pick of Worilds was total FAIL.

[Lloydsforearm]

While I think he has some upside, I wanted Eifert. I think w/the loss of Wallace/Mendy the uncertainty of Heath, the offense needed another threat. While they can certainly still aquire skill players in the coming rounds, I think Tyler's talent return is much more immediate than Jones. Also, "spinal stenosis"? That to me is much worse than questionable work ethic or failed drug tests. That's just not something that heals. There's preventative measures sure, but for how long? Just seems a bit riskier than it needed to be.

From what I understand is the SS condition is typically something that is a bigger concern at a later age, not in 20's and early 30s, but I am not a doctor.

[Lloydsforearm]

the 4.9 is the reason for all the hate. Suggs ran like a 4.84 the year he was drafted. 4.9 is very slow, but it doesn't mean he can't get to the qb.

whoever mentioned losing Mendy is going to hurt the offense, no way. wallace/miller injury yeah, but we won't miss mendy at all.

Didn't Jones run a 4.8 at his pro day? And yea, we will only be BETTER for not having Mendy on this roster. Bell is going to do fabulous.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

From what I understand is the SS condition is typically something that is a bigger concern at a later age, not in 20's and early 30s, but I am not a doctor.

Spinal stenosis is slightly subjective when 'grading'. However, when someone says cord impingement, that is absolute. Cord compression being worse because the cord is being compressed.

http://www3.americanradiology.com/imggallery/RADIOLOGY/mri/t2SagCspine.jpg

http://www.greatriverspineclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cervical-spinal-stenosis-mri.jpg

Just a few images of a cervical MRI.

Some clown neurosurgeon told my dad's wife in Florida she had mild cord compression. I finally got the CD-Rom yesterday and I think he got her confused with someone else.. She had no significant canal stenosis at all, it looked similar to the first MRI above.

In any case, I have a feeling Jarvis Jones does have a narrowed canal, but to what degree? Narrowed from bulging discs superimposed upon a congentially (developmental) small canal? I would have to see his MRI, there is no mistaking how much CSF (cerebral spial fluid) surrounds a spinal cord...(or does not surround in the case of impingement or compresssion) Nothing hides on MRI, nothing. Would love to see his MRI.


In general, canal stenosis progreses with age due to degenerating discs which tend to bulge more and protrude, or herniate. Its not just the discs, but the ligaments and facet joints that enlarge over time and narrow the canal. Just have to hope Jarvis' c-spine stays stable for as long as possible.

[Vader]

Suggs ran the same 40 time. I think he is an OK pass rusher. This guy is no Huey Richardson. He will be a play maker and the newest generation of excellent Steeler OLBs. But if he takes two years to see the field, I will also be pissed. VERY. Of course, if he does start this year, it will mean our 2nd round pick of Worilds was total FAIL.

I don't get the Suggs comparison. Yes, he and Jones ran around the same time. The same time that tons of Lbers that don't make the NFL run. But this lies at the issue with Jones. It isn't just his time. He has one move.. go around the blocker... period. He doesn't have any other moves. Suggs could power through a blocker, go around him, swim him, or just throw him out of the way. Jones doesn't have that ability. I hope he learns those moves but I just don't like spending a high first round pick on someone that is basically just a go around the end OLBer.

[diver5]

As some stupid people on this board would say: If you don't like how we in the SN rip or own draft picks, go and follow the Ravens..........(sarcasm off)

Look, I have really no issue with people not liking draft picks. I also understand this is a message board and all that goes with it.

However, while its fine to disagree with the picks, they are the picks. They cannot be changed. I think after a period of time, you gotta let it go. It's not the original bitching that gets to me. Its the bitching 2 weeks or more after the draft. I'm not saying be a blind homer, either. It's kinda like taking out the trash. You don't want to do it, but after a bit you realize you have to just buckle down and do it. I think we have to buckle down and know these are the picks and hope for the best.

I do wonder if there are a segment of Steeler fans who would actually be happier if the picks fail just so they can be proven right. I'm going to take a lot of heat for that statement, but I think to some degree there are people like that. I wasn't overly thrilled with the Jones pick. To be honest, after Cooper went off the board, I wasn't really overly thrilled about anybody. I gotta get on board with it now, though, right? It'll just be miserable if I spend time being pissed about the pick.

[Lloydsforearm]

I don't get the Suggs comparison. Yes, he and Jones ran around the same time. The same time that tons of Lbers that don't make the NFL run. But this lies at the issue with Jones. It isn't just his time. He has one move.. go around the blocker... period. He doesn't have any other moves. Suggs could power through a blocker, go around him, swim him, or just throw him out of the way. Jones doesn't have that ability. I hope he learns those moves but I just don't like spending a high first round pick on someone that is basically just a go around the end OLBer.

You bring up good points...I hope you are wrong.

[nooneuno]

Let the guy play before you pigeon hole him for fucks sake.

[CorpusDsteelers]

Didn't Jones run a 4.8 at his pro day? And yea, we will only be BETTER for not having Mendy on this roster. Bell is going to do fabulous.

Fabulous not sure where to go with that... I'm willing to bet a couple of well timed rings from bell will get us a Ring!!!!! Turbo pig mark it down!! Put it on the "list"

[Spike]

what a bunch of weeping vaginas

we're not giving him back, so deal with it

[SCSteeler4life]

Welcome back Spike.

[Spike]

Welcome back Spike.



Just call me The Draft King

I picked 3 of our top 4 picks correctly

[dobre shunka]

Seems to be the only weeping is from the people who open a thread titled 'Why all the hate for Jones' apparently surprised that it contains less than glowing opinions of Jones. Seems like there should be a simple enough solution for people to avoid such threads/discussions. I dunno, if someone doesn't want to read negative comments on, let's say Jones, maybe one way would be to not open and read the posts and respond to a thread soliciting opinions/reasons from those disagreeable to the Jones pick.

[Supersteeler]

However, while its fine to disagree with the picks, they are the picks. They cannot be changed. I think after a period of time, you gotta let it go. It's not the original bitching that gets to me. Its the bitching 2 weeks or more after the draft.

Hell, 2 weeks is nothing, people can't stop 5 and 10 years after.

[fogdoctor]

I put a list of draft picks from 1993-2003 below. The only ones I hated were: Jamain Stephens, Troy Edwards, and Jarvis Jones. I did not like the Lawrence Timmons pick either but not to the same level as the others.

1993 23 Deon Figures DB Colorado
1994 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
1995 27 Mark Bruener TE Washington
1996 29 Jamain Stephens OT North Carolina A&T
1997 24 Chad Scott DB Maryland
1998 26 Alan Faneca G LSU
1999 13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech
2000 8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
2001 19 Casey Hampton DT Texas
2002 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
2003 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (OH)
2005 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
2006 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2007 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State
2008 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2009 32 Evander Hood DT Missouri
2010 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2011 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State
2012 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2013 17 Jarvis Jones OLB Georgia

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

Sum of a bitch we really fucked up with Johnny Unitas...

[nooneuno]

Hell, 2 weeks is nothing, people can't stop 5 and 10 years after.Exactly lol a lot of people hate a guy as soon as he is drafted and no matter what he does on the field for the Steelers they'll find negative shit to say about him. The guy might get three sacks in a game and they'll focus on the dropped INT he could of had lol

[Steel Dino]

what a bunch of weeping vaginas

we're not giving him back, so deal with it

Now that is entertainment! Where you been you crusty old fart?

[Lloydsforearm]

The guy led the nation in sacks and tackles for losses. All he does is produce, and I will take that as the best indication of a player's ability than I ever will of any 40 time running in shorts. Prior performance is the #1 indicator, by far. I agree with Jimmy Johnson and Parcells when it comes to that mindset. I think chances are good JJ is going to be a very effective player. And I love the drafting of Bell as well. He will be our best back since Bettis in his prime. You heard it here first.

[BungleStainRatbirdKilla]

The guy led the nation in sacks and tackles for losses. All he *did* was produce.

Fixed ^^^ Well see what happens. At his draft position he sure as hell better produce.

[fogdoctor]

The guy led the nation in sacks and tackles for losses. All he does is produce, and I will take that as the best indication of a player's ability than I ever will of any 40 time running in shorts. Prior performance is the #1 indicator, by far. I agree with Jimmy Johnson and Parcells when it comes to that mindset. I think chances are good JJ is going to be a very effective player. And I love the drafting of Bell as well. He will be our best back since Bettis in his prime. You heard it here first.

I disagree. College production is only part of the package. If college production were the true measure of a player then Kevin Kolb would have been a top 5 pick and a pro bowl regular. I like the idea of weighing the measurables equally with college production - not more, just equally so that if either are missing then the player gets a lower grade.

[diver5]

Fixed ^^^ Well see what happens. At his draft position he sure as hell better produce.

What the hell does that mean, exactly? If they drafted him 24th or something he wouldn't be expected to produce? If he slipped to the 2nd round he wouldn't be expected to produce by Steeler fans?

[STEELERS R GR8]

Look, I have really no issue with people not liking draft picks. I also understand this is a message board and all that goes with it.

However, while its fine to disagree with the picks, they are the picks. They cannot be changed. I think after a period of time, you gotta let it go. It's not the original bitching that gets to me. Its the bitching 2 weeks or more after the draft. I'm not saying be a blind homer, either. It's kinda like taking out the trash. You don't want to do it, but after a bit you realize you have to just buckle down and do it. I think we have to buckle down and know these are the picks and hope for the best.

I do wonder if there are a segment of Steeler fans who would actually be happier if the picks fail just so they can be proven right. I'm going to take a lot of heat for that statement, but I think to some degree there are people like that. I wasn't overly thrilled with the Jones pick. To be honest, after Cooper went off the board, I wasn't really overly thrilled about anybody. I gotta get on board with it now, though, right? It'll just be miserable if I spend time being pissed about the pick.

This is a very good post, I was just reading some of these other post and the one thing that stood out was the knock on Hood. Now as veryone knows a DE in our system does not get the flashy sack numbers but plays more run stop/contain and the LB's get the numbers. Am I saying Hood is good/great no and I would love to see Heyward start over him but I am just pointing out that our ends in our system are not going to put up big sack numbers.

Also As far as Mendy, Wallace, and Lewis go Here is my take....#1 Mendy was always inj and the fumble in the SB didn't help his case here. #2 Wallace wanted the money and as much as I wanted him to stay he wasn't worth the money as far as our salary cap goes. #3 Lewis said from the start the Steelers were going to pay for not locking him up early, yeah he had a good yeaqr last year but other then that was he worth the big money.....I say no, jmo! WSith that said I have no idea why we brought back Gay...still scratching my head on that.

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Just call me The Draft King

I picked 3 of our top 4 picks correctly

hey welcome back spike,, I dunno where u been but,, cool.

And wehre is the link of your picks?? :D

[obx steeler]

This is a very good post, I was just reading some of these other post and the one thing that stood out was the knock on Hood. Now as veryone knows a DE in our system does not get the flashy sack numbers but plays more run stop/contain and the LB's get the numbers. Am I saying Hood is good/great no and I would love to see Heyward start over him but I am just pointing out that our ends in our system are not going to put up big sack numbers.

Also As far as Mendy, Wallace, and Lewis go Here is my take....#1 Mendy was always inj and the fumble in the SB didn't help his case here. #2 Wallace wanted the money and as much as I wanted him to stay he wasn't worth the money as far as our salary cap goes. #3 Lewis said from the start the Steelers were going to pay for not locking him up early, yeah he had a good yeaqr last year but other then that was he worth the big money.....I say no, jmo! WSith that said I have no idea why we brought back Gay...still scratching my head on that.

Good post. Mendy was much the same fan mentality as cost us O'Donnell after his SB picks. Not all his fault but neeed to blame somebody. O'Donnell was smart enough to see the handwriting and take the money and run. Gay isn't much but did look better in his last year here than anyone did after Ike went down.

[Vader]

This is a very good post, I was just reading some of these other post and the one thing that stood out was the knock on Hood. Now as veryone knows a DE in our system does not get the flashy sack numbers but plays more run stop/contain and the LB's get the numbers. Am I saying Hood is good/great no and I would love to see Heyward start over him but I am just pointing out that our ends in our system are not going to put up big sack numbers.

Also As far as Mendy, Wallace, and Lewis go Here is my take....#1 Mendy was always inj and the fumble in the SB didn't help his case here. #2 Wallace wanted the money and as much as I wanted him to stay he wasn't worth the money as far as our salary cap goes. #3 Lewis said from the start the Steelers were going to pay for not locking him up early, yeah he had a good yeaqr last year but other then that was he worth the big money.....I say no, jmo! WSith that said I have no idea why we brought back Gay...still scratching my head on that.

So there is nothing wrong with Hood but you want to replace him with Heyward? Go watch the KC game and it'll show you all you need to know about Hood. He struggles to get off blocks and was absolutely manhandled by the KC RT. They ran all over their right side. I know DLs in the 3-4 don't get alot of praise... however there is a difference between a good DL and an average/below average one. IF all DLs are basically the same then why take one in the first round?


Good post. Mendy was much the same fan mentality as cost us O'Donnell after his SB picks. Not all his fault but neeed to blame somebody. O'Donnell was smart enough to see the handwriting and take the money and run. Gay isn't much but did look better in his last year here than anyone did after Ike went down.

Mendy and O'Donnell couldn't be much further away as far as fans are concern IMHO. Mendy shot his mouth off several times. Also he was seen as lazy and it took Redman coming in to motivate him to run harder. Then he doesn't show up to a game when he wasn't playing. Then Tomlin has to bench him AGAIN. How is that similar to O'Donnell at all? People were upset with him because he threw 2 picks in a SB... that's it. O'Donnell could take the money and run because he was a highly sought after QB... Mendy signed a one year deal with the Broncos because he is not wanted by anyone.

[SCSteeler4life]

So there is nothing wrong with Hood but you want to replace him with Heyward? Go watch the KC game and it'll show you all you need to know about Hood. He struggles to get off blocks and was absolutely manhandled by the KC RT. They ran all over their right side. I know DLs in the 3-4 don't get alot of praise... however there is a difference between a good DL and an average/below average one. IF all DLs are basically the same then why take one in the first round?



Mendy and O'Donnell couldn't be much further away as far as fans are concern IMHO. Mendy shot his mouth off several times. Also he was seen as lazy and it took Redman coming in to motivate him to run harder. Then he doesn't show up to a game when he wasn't playing. Then Tomlin has to bench him AGAIN. How is that similar to O'Donnell at all? People were upset with him because he threw 2 picks in a SB... that's it. O'Donnell could take the money and run because he was a highly sought after QB... Mendy signed a one year deal with the Broncos because he is not wanted by anyone.

It was the Cardinals. He wished it was the Broncos.

[Steelerican]

Jones could be a total stud. He could turn out to be the best Steeler pick since...Ben. During the college season this guy was the premiere defensive player in the SEC. He was a disruptive force that reminded me of Troy, and not just because of the hair. He is an explosive pass rusher. We needed this badly, especially after letting Harrison go, though I think this kid is probably better at rushing the QB than Harrison is at this advanced stage of his career.

[Vader]

It was the Cardinals. He wished it was the Broncos.

Right. He was talking with the Broncos at one point.

[tjack]

neck issues, we just saw the past 2 years how Harrison's back slowed him down and Jones neck history is scary, eithier the doctors at USC misdiagnosed his injury that forced him to transfer to Georgia where he was cleared, time will tell either USC screwed up or somewhere down the line he starts missing games which for a 1.17 pick we cannot afford to have happen.
This is a big risk Colbert better hope he stays healthy because if he does from what I have seen on tape he will be a terror to mess with off the edge. As well a nickel unit of Woodley Timmons Worlids Jones and eithier Foote/rookie Hood Mclendon and the 4 DB's should be the best unit we have had since 2010.


Marcus McNeil's medical condition was cleared by the Chargers doctors too. His spinal stenosis was a concern at the combine. He was drafted in the 2nd round in 2006. The Chargers cleared him. Drafted him. He lasted 6 years before he took the right shot that ended his career.

Will Jones be 6 years lucky? Will he be 10 years lucky? Will he be 1 year lucky?

The main reason for me was his medical issues and the USC doctor's. Were they correct or wrong? Will this kid be able to stay healthy on and off the football field?

[STEELERS R GR8]

So there is nothing wrong with Hood but you want to replace him with Heyward? Go watch the KC game and it'll show you all you need to know about Hood. He struggles to get off blocks and was absolutely manhandled by the KC RT. They ran all over their right side. I know DLs in the 3-4 don't get alot of praise... however there is a difference between a good DL and an average/below average one. IF all DLs are basically the same then why take one in the first round?

Not sure what you read but I never said there was nothing wrong with Hood, as a matter of fact I did say.........Am I saying Hood is good/great no and I would love to see Heyward start over him but I am just pointing out that our ends in our system are not going to put up big sack numbers. My point I was making was our DE's don't get big sack numbers but more run defenders and by saying I wanted to see Heyward more I thought meant I wasn't a big Hood fan. I agree Hood has been bad against the run and not been a stud like we thought we were getting.......just sayin

[deljzc]

It's interesting we eliminate Ed Lacy for a fused toe but select Jones with his spinal stenosis.

Our orthopedist better know what the hell he is doing. If Jones career is cut shorter than Lacy's due to his back, that would be a pretty bad indictment on our medical staff.