ESPN Ranks WRs

[smithessmokin]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=3309135&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3309135

both ward and holmes were in top 20. do you see many other teams with both starting WRs in the top 20???

[Southern Steeler]

do you see many other teams with both starting WRs in the top 20???

Yes. On the list you provided the Colts, Cardinals and Bengals meet that criteria, too.

[Garrett]

I don't understand this comment in the article:

Holmes' numbers have gone up in each of his two seasons in the league -- he had 49 catches for 824 yards in his rookie year and 52 catches for 942 yards last season despite missing three games with an injury.

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I can understand his numbers going up in consecutive seasons if he had played 3, but his numbers had nowhere to go but up as a rookie.

[Supersteeler]

I don't understand this comment in the article:

Holmes' numbers have gone up in each of his two seasons in the league -- he had 49 catches for 824 yards in his rookie year and 52 catches for 942 yards last season despite missing three games with an injury.

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I can understand his numbers going up in consecutive seasons if he had played 3, but his numbers had nowhere to go but up as a rookie.

I don't see 49 catches for 824 as a rookie to be all that bad....especially when you consider he only started about 4 games.

[TMC]

The funny thing, Arians is installing an offense similar to the Colts. They have the #5, #13, and #47 ranked WR on that list. Three of the top 64 WRs. The Bengals have the #8, #16, and #44 WRs. The Patriots have the #1 and #23 WR on the list and LOST the #37 WR to Cleveland.

The three offenses in the NFL we are hoping to close ground on ALL have or had 3 WRs ranked in the top 64 and ALL had a top 10 guy. Ward used to be a top 10 guy, he is now sliding and IF we fail to replace him, our offense will be in big trouble in a season or two.

[Mud Dog]

Ward used to be a top 10 guy, he is now sliding and IF we fail to replace him, our offense will be in big trouble in a season or two.

But we already prepared for that when we drafted Holmes.

[Slaine]

Holmes is no Hines. Different type of receiver.

[TMC]

But we already prepared for that when we drafted Holmes.

Then who replaced Burress and Randle El?

We once had Ward, Burress, and ARE. That is a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick at WR. We were not really worried about our WRs then. Burress leaves, we sign Wilson. El leaves, we draft Santonio. Now, we cut Wilson.

We have not sufficiently replaced the WR corp we had 3 years ago and could potentially see our top WR retiring in 2 seasons.

I hope you are not stating that we are going to run a 2 RB, 2 TE, 1 WR set with Holmes as the guy.

[kurtistb]

Holmes is no Hines. Different type of receiver.

But I do think Holmes jumps into the top 12 this year. He is well ahead of where alot of those guys were going into there third year.

[TMC]

If you do not add someone opposite of Santonio, he won't go anywhere. I love what Hines Ward brings to the game, but he is not a guy that is going to force safety help over the top. He is not going to pull the defense to his side because what Hines does is move the chains and play a physical brand of football. We need another guy that can put pressure on the safety. I could care less if he is 6'-200 pounds as long as he can get deep and make a catch.

[Steelz]

If you do not add someone opposite of Santonio, he won't go anywhere. I love what Hines Ward brings to the game, but he is not a guy that is going to force safety help over the top. He is not going to pull the defense to his side because what Hines does is move the chains and play a physical brand of football. We need another guy that can put pressure on the safety. I could care less if he is 6'-200 pounds as long as he can get deep and make a catch.

Thats true too. Hines is really built perfectly as a slot Wr, If we can get someone else to stretch the field from the outside (opposite Holmes) we could be dangerous.

[mightyguru]

Thats true too. Hines is really built perfectly as a slot Wr, If we can get someone else to stretch the field from the outside (opposite Holmes) we could be dangerous.

Throw in Heath and then look the fuck out.

[Steelz]

Throw in Heath and then look then out.

Yup. We diffinitly have potential if we play our cards right, we're 1 more guy (and a o-line) away from becoming one of the best offenses in the league. IMO.

[Andymisiu]

I have to admit, we are pretty thin at WR. I hope the Steelers make the right choice on how to handle the situation. Whether it be a temporary fix for this year and address other needs, or vice versa. I think it takes longer to develope an OL then it does a WR so I hope we can fix the line first and then handle the WR. But if it just so happens that WR is the way we go...... then, AIR it out.

[60 MINUTES]

We are thin at WR but are worse at OT. We could use a vet to fill the 3rd WR spot for this year and address that issue next year with a second round pick. Holmes will be a top WR in this league and Hines has 3 or 4 years left of moving chains and making plays in the slot. I'm not sure any WR is worth a number one pick, they are just not worth it and have too many hothead moments. AKA PLAX. I'd rather have Ward anyday over a guy like plax that took 6 years to grow up and still may not be there. Get a VET that you know can play and use Heath more, Not to mention put some, shit put alot of check down plays in for Willie. We should use him more like the rams did Marshall F. By doing some of this your Pass game will be more then fine for the next couple of years.

PRAY for Jeff O to slide or give me Baker and BEN is good for the next 10 years on his left side.

[PsychoWard]

But I do think Holmes jumps into the top 12 this year. He is well ahead of where alot of those guys were going into there third year.


I think the only guys he passes this year are Hines, Jennings and Marshall (maybe) this year. But that list is aging with guys like Marvin, Holt and Moss.

[Hollywood Bags]

No way is Welker only 23 in the NFL, he is much better than many on the list , unstoppable in thbe slot

[deljzc]

I was kind of really hoping we would have brought Bryant Johnson in and discuss a deal. You think there's some sort of 4-year/$17M type deal with enough guaranteed money to talk him out of a 1-year/$2M deal with San Francisco (where he thinks Martz is going to make him rich).

That's the same cap money as Cedric Wilson with inflation and he's a much better talent (1st rounder) opposite Holmes and allows more slot receiver time for Ward.

Then we wouldn't be in a situation where trying to develop a WR in this draft class is important. I am mortally against picking a WR in round 1. I just don't think you build teams with 1st rounders at both WR's and the TE (all drafted over a 4 year period). That's too heavy an investment of resources in my opinion for those positions.

I guess maybe to reach a middle ground I can hope one of the Big 7 receivers falls to us at pick #53 (that's Sweed, Jockson, Doucet, Thomas, Hardy, Kelly and Manningham), but with Ben's blunder with the media, we now seem restricted to only picking guys over 6'-2" (which is just a terrible way to select any talent) and that further hurts what Colbert/Tomlin can now do with the receiver position this point forward.

We'll see how things play out in a month.

[Slaine]

But I do think Holmes jumps into the top 12 this year. He is well ahead of where alot of those guys were going into there third year.

I think that Holmes can be a number one for us but he does need someone that can play the possession role in the same way that Hines does. If we had a genuine threat out of the slot then we could be very dangerous but I think that Arians wants to go 2WR, 2TE and is less bothered about what the third WR brings to the table and Washington can probably do enough of that for what he wants.

I guess we'll see what happens but I wouldn't be surprised to see us pick up another tight end in this draft rather than a WR. That would give Spaeth and Miller some more talented backup and help spread the load on them.

My gut feel is that if we want to go with a WR then it will be in the next draft.

[Coryea]

Yes. On the list you provided the Colts, Cardinals and Bengals meet that criteria, too.

IMO, the Colts don't really count because Harrison hardly played and Gonzalez wouldn't be anywhere near that list if Harrison didn't get hurt. The Cards and Bengals both missed the playoffs.

NE had 3 guys on there, lost the Super Bowl.

The Colts won the Super Bowl without Gonzalez, we won the Super Bowl with El and Ward, with Ced as our #3 guy.

[TMC]

IMO, the Colts don't really count because Harrison hardly played and Gonzalez wouldn't be anywhere near that list if Harrison didn't get hurt. The Cards and Bengals both missed the playoffs.

NE had 3 guys on there, lost the Super Bowl.

The Colts won the Super Bowl without Gonzalez, we won the Super Bowl with El and Ward, with Ced as our #3 guy.

And the Ravens won the Super Bowl without a QB.....should we trade Ben?

The Colts,who had Harrison and Wayne, spent their first round draft pick on a WR in the last draft.

The Patriots did not win the Super Bowl, but they did set records for beating the hell out of every team they faced.......including the Giants. They fell short in the Super Bowl, but were far and away the dominant team last season.

The Cards and the Bengals did not miss the playoffs because of their offense.....and damn sure did not miss it because of their WRs. The fact that anyone would even compare our WRs during the Super Bowl run to the Pats, Bengals, Cards, or Colts is laughable.

Maybe we should draft a bunch of defensive ends, sign an underachieving WR, and hope we can become the Giants.

[Coryea]

And the Ravens won the Super Bowl without a QB.....should we trade Ben?

The Colts,who had Harrison and Wayne, spent their first round draft pick on a WR in the last draft.

The Patriots did not win the Super Bowl, but they did set records for beating the hell out of every team they faced.......including the Giants. They fell short in the Super Bowl, but were far and away the dominant team last season.

The Cards and the Bengals did not miss the playoffs because of their offense.....and damn sure did not miss it because of their WRs. The fact that anyone would even compare our WRs during the Super Bowl run to the Pats, Bengals, Cards, or Colts is laughable.

Maybe we should draft a bunch of defensive ends, sign an underachieving WR, and hope we can become the Giants.

Damn, I was just pointing out that teams have won the Super Bowl as of late without having WR's like NE, Cincy, or the Cards.

I'm not against taking a WR in round 1 at all, if there are no top tier OT's available.

[Blind Official]

Then who replaced Burress and Randle El?

We once had Ward, Burress, and ARE. That is a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick at WR. We were not really worried about our WRs then. Burress leaves, we sign Wilson. El leaves, we draft Santonio. Now, we cut Wilson.

We have not sufficiently replaced the WR corp we had 3 years ago and could potentially see our top WR retiring in 2 seasons.

Yeah, but we've also not sufficiently replaced the OL. You can't send the resources everywhere, and the OL at the time let them throw picks at luxuries like WR.

it's the same with the Colts. Their OL is cheap. That's why they can worry about giving Manning weapons.

[TMC]

Yeah, but we've also not sufficiently replaced the OL. You can't send the resources everywhere, and the OL at the time let them throw picks at luxuries like WR.

it's the same with the Colts. Their OL is cheap. That's why they can worry about giving Manning weapons.

But, their style of offense, which is what I am assuming we are going towards, allows them to not have those great offensive linemen. IMO, Manning and his receivers make that line look better than it is. When we faced them in the playoffs and our corners stayed with their WRs for more than 3 seconds, our pass rush killed Manning.....and our pass rush was not that good up until the playoffs.

I think that the Colts and Pats OLs are over-rated. They have QBs that can stand in the shotgun and zip the ball out so fast that there are plays where a sack of sand could block for them.

I love Ward and I am beginning to really like Santonio, but when you realize that Brady can throw that quick hitter to Moss at any time and he can get 10 yards (or 50) plus he has Welker who is open after his first step, he has weapons to get the ball out before the rush gets there.

We do NOT have that.....and we need a weapon added....because if WE had Wes Welker, our offense would be as dangerous as he Pats. Now, I think Ward can do everything Welker did in the slot. But, you need a Moss/Stallworth type pair outside. IMO, our offense is 1 WR short of being special.

Of course, we can STILL find that guy in the 3rd. I am not locked into a first round WR.....but I am not completely against the idea either.

[Blind Official]

But, their style of offense, which is what I am assuming we are going towards, allows them to not have those great offensive linemen. IMO, Manning and his receivers make that line look better than it is.

Correct, BUT so far Arians hasn't called plays to match that style of offense AND Ben hasn't shown the ability to get rid of the ball quickly (more than a series or so against the Jags in the playoffs).

We do NOT have that.....and we need a weapon added....because if WE had Wes Welker, our offense would be as dangerous as he Pats. Now, I think Ward can do everything Welker did in the slot. But, you need a Moss/Stallworth type pair outside. IMO, our offense is 1 WR short of being special.

Of course, we can STILL find that guy in the 3rd. I am not locked into a first round WR.....but I am not completely against the idea either.

I agree with everything else you're saying, but I doubt Arians more than you do. Plus, I don't see them using Miller in the same way that the Colts use Clark or the Pats use Watson.

...hell, then spend a pick on a WR last year instead of Spaeth.

[rossi]

Hey TMC whats your opinion of Dallas Baker? Is the best we could expect from him a Nate Washington type value? Is the low end that he isn't going to be on the final roster in '08?
Thanks.

[Andymisiu]

Hey TMC whats your opinion of Dallas Baker? Is the best we could expect from him a Nate Washington type value? Is the low end that he isn't going to be on the final roster in '08?
Thanks.

Both Nate Washington and Dallas Baker run in the 4.5 to 4.6 range in the 40 yard dash. Randy Moss and Plaxico Burress ran in the 4.3 area when comming out of college. Not a huge difference but still a difference to put it in perspective. I don't think Washington or Baker will be much more than a 3rd or 4th receiver in the NFL.

[Coryea]

Burress ran a 4.59 coming out of college.

[DaSwitz]

Both Nate Washington and Dallas Baker run in the 4.5 to 4.6 range in the 40 yard dash. Randy Moss and Plaxico Burress ran in the 4.3 area when comming out of college. Not a huge difference but still a difference to put it in perspective. I don't think Washington or Baker will be much more than a 3rd or 4th receiver in the NFL.

I'm not sure where you got your 40 times, but the consensus from the Steelers wideouts is that Nate is the fastest of our WRs.

[FlaStGrad]

And the Ravens won the Super Bowl without a QB.....should we trade Ben?

What do you think we could get for him? Maybe a fourth or a fifth round pick.

Let the Charlie Batch era begin! :rolleyes:

[Coryea]

What do you think we could get for him? Maybe a fourth or a fifth round pick.

Let the Charlie Batch era begin! :rolleyes:

LOL, there was someone last season here making a case that Batch was better than Ben and should be starting.

[kurtistb]

Both Nate Washington and Dallas Baker run in the 4.5 to 4.6 range in the 40 yard dash. Randy Moss and Plaxico Burress ran in the 4.3 area when comming out of college. Not a huge difference but still a difference to put it in perspective. I don't think Washington or Baker will be much more than a 3rd or 4th receiver in the NFL.

holy made up numbers. Holmes ran a 4.38 and Nate is at least that fast

[Supersteeler]

holy made up numbers. Holmes ran a 4.38 and Nate is at least that fast

Nate is as fast as Holmes? I didn't even think it was close. Aren't Willie, Ike and Santonio our only guys that run anything close to a 4.3?

[Coryea]

Baker ran a 4.53
Washington ran a 4.55
Holmes ran 4.38

[rossi]

Both Nate Washington and Dallas Baker run in the 4.5 to 4.6 range in the 40 yard dash. Randy Moss and Plaxico Burress ran in the 4.3 area when comming out of college. Not a huge difference but still a difference to put it in perspective. I don't think Washington or Baker will be much more than a 3rd or 4th receiver in the NFL.

I believe your correct on Baker's speed but incorrect on both Nate and Plaxico. Nate is about a 4.39 guy and Plax as Coryea correctly stated was a high 4.55-4.59 guy comming out of Mich St.
Speed not withstanding I hope we get something out of the DB kid. Perhaps as he was at Florida he could be a solid red zone target for us.
Has anyone got any idea about this 2nd year wide out?

[BermudaSteel]

Nate is as fast as Holmes? I didn't even think it was close. Aren't Willie, Ike and Santonio our only guys that run anything close to a 4.3?

Gay is close too - I recall 4.4 or something like that...

I shared my opinion on this and like TMC and Tres - we ARE one WR (big and fast) from having an awesome offense. If Ben has the weapons the release comes faster and we won't have to depend on the O Line as much, IMO...

[Andymisiu]

Here are the links to where I got the 40 times. I just googled it really fast and went with it.

http://pit.scout.com/2/387181.html
http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/rev/apr00/widereceiver-plaxicoburress.asp

I guess these are NOT actual combine 40-yard-dash times so I apologize for incorrect information.

However, I still feel that Washington and Baker would be unable to crack a starting lineup.

Get a veteran to come in here for a year or draft a 2nd or 3rd round prospect. I would only grab a WR in the first if there were no OL available or we felt that the OL talent in the second is valuable.

[JEFFRO]

What is all this talk about replacing Wilson...that is why we drafted Willie Reid....

...'er..never mind!:confused:

[titus]

Polamalu ran a 4.37 coming out of college. Willie and Ike both were both @ 4.28, If I remember correctly, Ike might have been the fastest person at the combine the year he was drafted.

[dobre shunka]

Ike wasn't invited to the combine.

[TMC]

Parker was hand timed at a 4.23 at the Pro Day (UNC). Coryea is dead on with his 40s, although Washington's ranged from a 4.48 to a 4.55 at the Pro Day and some think he is faster on the field. Burress could not touch 4.3 in the 30 yard dash.

Baker could develop into a decent 4 or 5, but I do not see him ever getting into the top 3. Of course, guys surprise you and Baker could do that. I would have never predicted that Nate Washington stayed around as long as he did.

But, IF Baker does develop AND we drafted a guy early that plays well, we have a fleet of WRs then.....like Green Bay did.....and that works too.

[JEFFRO]

I guess we'll see what happens but I wouldn't be surprised to see us pick up another tight end in this draft rather than a WR.

How do I say this without hurting a friend's feelings?

Slaine, buddy,please I beg of you! Get out of that house!
There is lead or radon in that place!

There is NO Way the Steelers draft a Tight End this year!

Get your family and get out of there! Please! Before it is too late!

If the Steelers draft another TE I may have myself admitted to the looney!