USA Today: Best OL in the draft....

[TMC]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-03-26-sw-offensive-line_N.htm

There are some good offensive linemen in this year's draft, but the challenge for NFL teams might be where to play them.

As always, the most prized offensive lineman is the one who can play left tackle, the man who protects the blind side of right-handed quarterbacks, the team's most valuable asset. But of the five tackles projected to be selected in the first round by NFLDraftScout.com, only two seem ready and able to play left tackle immediately. In fact, they are the only reliable left tackle candidates among the top dozen tackles. The others seem better suited for outmuscling defenders from the right side or even moving inside to guard, where there is otherwise only one player projected for the first round. And at center, the top candidate isn't expected to be taken until the second round.

Even the top-rated tackle, Michigan's very talented and experienced Jake Long, is being looked at as a right tackle. That leaves the second- and third-ranked tackles as the best bets in this draft to help quickly at left tackle — Boise State's Ryan Clady and Vanderbilt's Chris Williams. Virginia's huge Branden Albert tops the charts at guard, but he could have used another year in college. Arizona State's Mike Pollak appears to be the best of the centers but isn't likely to hear his name called in Round 1.

A closer look at the top offensive line prospects in the draft:

TACKLES

1. Jake Long, Michigan, 6-7, 313, 1st: Long is a mean, muscular, drive-blocking mauler who can open freeway-type access for running backs. He lacks the quickness and agility to be a consistent pass blocker at the NFL level, so the two-time Big Ten Conference offensive lineman of the year probably projects to right tackle. He plays with a good feel and alertness to what defenses are trying to do. His 37 repetitions on the bench press with 225 pounds were the most of any offensive lineman at the scouting combine.

Long, a take-charge, team-captain type, was the key in a Michigan offense that averaged 373.5 yards a game last season. His lengthy highlight reel from 2007 would show 119 knockdowns and 18 blocks that resulted in touchdowns, and he allowed only one sack (to highly touted Ohio State defensive end Vernon Gholston). Long allowed two sacks in 40 career starts.

2. *Ryan Clady, Boise State, 6-6, 309, 1st: Thanks to a superb combination of size and athleticism, Clady could play either side of the line and be a tremendous asset as a run and pass blocker. His in-game demeanor is not as nasty as Long's, but he still startles defenders with his explosiveness at the snap and ability to control an entire play with his agility and balance.

He did give up 3½ sacks as a junior last year, but this hardworking team leader is remembered more vividly for those 224 knockdowns he compiled in the last two years, including 32 blocks that resulted in touchdowns.

3. Chris Williams, Vanderbilt, 6-6, 315, 1st: Williams is long, lean and agile. He uses those traits to finesse and frustrate defenders rather than simply destroy them.

At the Senior Bowl workouts, his strengths and shortcomings were obvious when he displayed excellent pass-blocking skills at left tackle but he seemed to lack strength and drive when moved to right tackle or guard. NFL teams think he has extraordinary basics that would be maximized if he added bulk and strength.

In his college career, Williams collected 181 knockdowns with 21 blocks that resulted in touchdowns. He allowed two sacks over a span of 1,558 offensive snaps.

4. Jeff Otah, Pittsburgh, 6-6, 322, 1st: Otah is raw and inconsistent, but many NFL teams think he has tremendous upside. However they were disappointed he was unable to play in the Senior Bowl because of a high ankle sprain, and then his combine performance was below par because of the ankle, which also limited his ability to train.

Nigerian-born, this mountainous mauler was a basketball player until his senior year of high school and is still working hard to learn how to channel his unusual physical gifts. He doesn't have the quick feet to be a consistent pass blocker but is expected to be a considerable force as a right tackle.

In 24 starts for the Panthers, he had 192 knockdown blocks, including 26 that led directly to touchdowns.

5. Gosder Cherilus, Boston College, 6-7, 314, 1st-2nd: This Haitian-born giant plays like a freight train going downhill, which means anything in front of him is in serious trouble. However, his lack of lateral agility and quickness was obvious when he had to play left tackle last season and then again at the Senior Bowl workouts.

He was a right tackle in 37 of his school-record 51 starts, and that's where he was dominant. He graduated last year with a degree in communication and is also a student of football, so Cherilus can be expected to quickly understand team concepts.

In his last two seasons, he had 156 knockdown blocks, with 22 opening the way for touchdowns.

6. *Anthony Collins, Kansas, 6-5, 317, 2nd: Collins played only one year of football in high school, and that was mainly as a defensive end. He has only four years of playing organized football — two as a starting offensive tackle — and probably should have stayed in school for one more year. But many NFL teams love his upside.

He is a massive man with a great attitude who should be effective despite the lack of great agility, which became apparent when he moved from right tackle to left last year. He'll probably be a right tackle in the NFL.

Collins started 23 of his final 24 games and collected 172 knockdowns and 22 blocks that resulted in touchdowns. But he also gave up 13 sacks.

7. Sam Baker, Southern California, 6-5, 309, 2nd: Although he is a career left tackle, Baker should expect to be moved to right tackle in the NFL to take advantage of his strong punch and drive blocking. That would also help minimize problems with his lack of elite athletic ability.

He did well in Senior Bowl workouts. Baker battled through injuries the last two years to become a three-time All-America first-team selection. He registered 197 knockdowns with 26 blocks that led to touchdowns while allowing only 4½ sacks on his last 889 pass plays.

His father, David, is the commissioner of the Arena Football League.

8. Duane Brown, Virginia Tech, 6-4, 315, 2nd: Brown is an intriguing developmental prospect who has great straight-line speed. He did surprisingly well during East-West workouts, and NFL teams began to pay more attention to him at that time.

Brown began his college career as a tight end before moving to right tackle last year. As a left tackle in 2007, he had 34 knockdown blocks but gave up 8½ of the 54 sacks yielded by the line. Brown did use his good speed to block two kicks.

He needs polish but is likely worth the effort and investment.

9. Carl Nicks, Nebraska, 6-5, 341, 2nd-3rd: Here is a physically imposing player with almost too much size. He will need to keep that, and his lifestyle, under control if he wants somebody to write him big checks.

In 2007, his only season as a Division I starter, Nicks showed surprising mobility to go along with his conspicuous mass at left tackle. Nicks originally signed with New Mexico State but transferred to Hartnell Junior College because of academic problems and became a star there before moving on to play for the Cornhuskers.

However, there are legitimate concerns about his off-field conduct, which was demonstrated this month when Nicks was banned from Nebraska's pro-day workout after being involved in a party that resulted in several tickets being issued by the Lincoln police.

10. John Greco, Toledo, 6-5, 305, 3rd: Greco is slightly reminiscent of former Toledo standout Nick Kaczur, now the starting right tackle for the New England Patriots.

He is not a flashy athlete but is extremely strong and able to control people in a small area. He is at his best as a drive blocker, and his lack of speed and athleticism are exposed if he is forced to block a fast pass rusher.

Greco started 49 consecutive games for the Rockets, including 36 at left tackle. As a left tackle, he delivered 275 knockdowns and 34 that led to touchdowns.

11. Oniel Cousins, Texas-El Paso, 6-4, 308, 3rd: Cousins is a native of Jamaica who began his college career as a defensive tackle and has only two years of experience on the offensive line. He is physically talented but learning the position, which was obvious during the Senior Bowl workouts.

Cousins has flashed the athleticism needed to play on the outside, but early in his career teams might elect to move him inside, where he can use his raw strength to survive while he gets acclimated to the speed of the pro game.

GUARDS

1. *Branden Albert, Virginia, 6-6, 309, 1st: A former basketball player who has played football only since his junior year of high school, Albert has rare quickness for a man of his size.

He has been a standout since his freshman season and started all 36 games for Virginia before entering this year's draft after his junior season. An all-conference selection each of his three seasons, Albert will be graded by some teams as a tackle prospect after faring well at left tackle in two college starts because of an injury to regular starter Eugene Monroe.

During his final two seasons, Albert had 94 knockdowns and touchdown-producing blocks on 21 plays. In his last 25 games he allowed 6½ sacks but no pressures.

2. Roy Schuening, Oregon State, 6-4, 306, 2nd-3rd: Schuening was considered Mr. Consistency at Oregon State, where he set a school record with 50 consecutive starts and was doing very well until the last half of the 2007 season. Against Southern California, he was handled by Sedrick Ellis, who is rated among the top 10 players in this year's draft.

Then Schuening was moved to tackle, where he had considerable trouble keeping up with speedy edge rushers. In Senior Bowl workouts, he again had trouble with quick-footed defenders but showed enough strength and tenacity to impress several scouts.

In his last two seasons, Schuening registered 185 knockdowns and 18 touchdown-resulting blocks.

3. *Chilo Rachal, Southern California, 6-5, 315, 3rd: Rachal is a quick, athletic, aggressive drive blocker with exceptional potential who could have benefited from another year in college. However, his needs are off the field, where his mother was diagnosed with a stomach tumor and was awaiting insurance approval when Rachal had to make the call on whether to play for pay this year. He could have been a very high pick next year.

There are also minor concerns about his health and durability because he missed three games in 2007 with a sprained knee, continuing a trend that goes back to 2004.

In 21 games as a starter, Rachal didn't allow a sack and delivered 155 knockdowns, including 15 blocks that resulted in touchdowns.

4. Mike McGlynn, Pittsburgh, 6-4, 311, 3rd-4th: Versatile and consistent, McGlynn also showed toughness and agility during Senior Bowl workouts.

He started 31 consecutive games at right tackle before shifting to right guard for a while as a senior. He played in 47 college games, posting 319 knockdowns, with 49 resulting in touchdowns.

McGlynn became the first Panthers offensive lineman to receive 90% grades from coaches in four or more games in the same season since former Washington Redskins Hog Mark May captured the Outland Trophy in 1980. The only other Pittsburgh lineman to grade 90% or better in three games during the same season was Bill Fralic — the No. 2 overall pick in the 1985 draft by the Atlanta Falcons — in 1983. That's pretty good company.

5. Donald Thomas, Connecticut, 6-4, 303, 3rd-4th: Thomas is one of the more intriguing guard prospects in the draft.

His stock soared in 2007, when he finally turned his athletic potential into on-the-field production. A rare athlete for the position, Thomas is well-built and flashes explosiveness and nastiness in his blocking.

His star continued to rise after impressive performances in the Hula Bowl and East-West Shrine Game. Then he did well in the combine, where his marks were well better than average in every event.

CENTERS

1. Mike Pollak, Arizona State, 6-4, 301, 2nd: Although he packs a quick and effective initial punch, Pollak doesn't have the overall strength to outmuscle some of the massive maulers he will face in the NFL. He is a battler who does his best work by finding an angle to wall off a defender. He struggles to reach the second level and was credited with only five downfield blocks in 2007.

In his last two years as a starter, Pollak had 155 knockdown blocks, including 26 that led directly to touchdowns, but he also gave up seven sacks.

2. Steve Justice, Wake Forest, 6-4, 293, 2nd-3rd: Justice relies on finesse rather than force to get the job done and appears to be best suited for a zone-blocking system such as the Denver Broncos use.

He is a dedicated worker on the field and in the film room, making him adept at recognizing defensive ploys and able to make the correct line calls.

He had a solid, but not sensational, week at the Senior Bowl.

3. John Sullivan, Notre Dame, 6-4, 301, 3rd: Like his entire team, Sullivan struggled in 2007, including problems just making the snap, although changes at quarterback didn't help in that regard.

He started 43 games in his career but saw his streak of 31 consecutive starts broken when he injured his knee and missed the final two games last season. He was healthy enough to give a solid performance in Senior Bowl workouts.

Sullivan has used more brain than brawn to get him through his career, and some NFL teams think he has a frame that can hold more mass, and that might improve his draft stock and overall play.

[60 MINUTES]

Whats your point?

[TMC]

Whats your point?

It was an article on the offensive linemen posted by Scouts INC. I thought some would like to read it.

If you don't, then the only point I can think of is me pointing you to the exit of this thread.

[60 MINUTES]

Most people make a comment on what they posted, my point was simple, what was you thought on this? AKA is there a point you are getting at?

I thought it was a good read myself.

[pete]

I thought it was a good read myself.

That was the point.

[TMC]

Most people make a comment on what they posted, my point was simple, what was you thought on this? AKA is there a point you are getting at?

I thought it was a good read myself.

My mistake. I have a splitting headache and do not feel well. I also have my wife and two sons playing a Wii they borrowed from my niece and quite frankly, they are on my last damn nerve....so I am touchy.

The part I thought was interesting in all this was the number of knockdowns, how many times teams ran behind these guys, and the sack numbers given up by each.

I would also have Baker higher, maybe 5th on the tackles with Cherilus right behind him.....because I value LTs more than I do RTs.

At guard, I would have Schuening #1 and would probably place Rachal above Albert. I mean, Rachal did not give up a sack in 2 seasons.

I do not like the sack numbers of Albert OR Pollack and would be interested to see when they came and who they were facing.

[warriors42]

weren't there some mocks recently that had us taking Rachal in the 1st, and this has him projected in the 3rd. I probably am wrong, but I thought I had seen this..

[kurtistb]

I wholeheartedly agree that Clady and Williams are the best LTs entering the draft, Long is an all pro RT just waiting to happen. I love Cherilus in the second but we'd have to move up to get him and I'm not really an Otah guy. I honestly think with the lack of LT's and the depth of RT's we would be much better off in the long run going somewhere other than tackle (like CB, WR or DL) assuming Williams doesn't slide at all.

[TMC]

And, I may as well use this to start a thread on who has visited, because over the past 4-5 years I have really been tracking the visits, the Steelers have visited every first day pick they selected.

Offense:
Gosder Cherilus, OT, Boston College
Brandon McAnderson, FB, Kansas
Jehuu Cailcrick, RB, Michigan State
Ryan Torian, RB, Arizona State
*Mike McGlynn, OL, Pitt
*Jeff Otah, OT, Pitt
*Darrell Strong, TE, Pitt

Defense:
Joe "Red" Bryant, DL, Texas A&M
Kendall Langford, DE, Hampton
Keilen Dykes, DL, West Virginia
Dre Moore, DL, Maryland
Shawn Crable, LB, Michigan
Jerod Mayo, LB, Tennessee
Aqib Talib, CB, Kansas

*does not count towards 30 "official" visits. Colleges located within a certain radius are considered local players and do not count towards the total of 30.

[t-bone]

McAnderson is kinda interesting....Caulcrick too....late rounds

though what we would do with a FB, who knows...

[Southern Steeler]

How do you allow 6 1/2 sacks but no pressures?

[TMC]

How do you allow 6 1/2 sacks but no pressures?

I saw that too.......

[FlaStGrad]

Albert is ranked higher than the other guards for 2 reasons... he is the best pulling guard and he can potentially play tackle. Those are 2 things that I think would actually benefit the Steelers.

[titus]

How do you allow 6 1/2 sacks but no pressures?

By using the famous Turnstile move, made famous by Marvel Smith...

[dobre shunka]

Would be interesting to see him go up against Keisel. The ol' Resistable Object v Moveable Force. Sumthins gotta give. Keisel with his 5 billion 'pressures' and jack squat for sacks versus Albert giving up a decent chunk of sacks with jack squat for pressures.

[kurtistb]

Albert is ranked higher than the other guards for 2 reasons... he is the best pulling guard and he can potentially play tackle. Those are 2 things that I think would actually benefit the Steelers.

and some would say Starks could potentially play Left Tackle too but I ain't buying that one either

[crimsonsteel]

By using the famous Turnstile move, made famous by Marvel Smith...


Rich Tylski = DISRESPECTED!!!!!


Thanks for the read TMC.

[60 MINUTES]

And, I may as well use this to start a thread on who has visited, because over the past 4-5 years I have really been tracking the visits, the Steelers have visited every first day pick they selected.

Offense:
Gosder Cherilus, OT, Boston College
Brandon McAnderson, FB, Kansas
Jehuu Cailcrick, RB, Michigan State
Ryan Torian, RB, Arizona State
*Mike McGlynn, OL, Pitt
*Jeff Otah, OT, Pitt
*Darrell Strong, TE, Pitt

Defense:
Joe "Red" Bryant, DL, Texas A&M
Kendall Langford, DE, Hampton
Keilen Dykes, DL, West Virginia
Dre Moore, DL, Maryland
Shawn Crable, LB, Michigan
Jerod Mayo, LB, Tennessee
Aqib Talib, CB, Kansas

*does not count towards 30 "official" visits. Colleges located within a certain radius are considered local players and do not count towards the total of 30.

From the people we have visits with and taking in consideration that GOSDER CHERIOUS is projected to be a second round guy. I wonder if Jeff Otah is not there it looks like the steelers are thinking DL first round.....

[Idioteque]

However, there are legitimate concerns about his off-field conduct, which was demonstrated this month when Nicks was banned from Nebraska's pro-day workout after being involved in a party that resulted in several tickets being issued by the Lincoln police.

GASP!!!!

tickets, you say?

a party attended by popular college students?!

Lawrence Phillips Jr!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sluzilla]

Albert is ranked higher than the other guards for 2 reasons... he is the best pulling guard and he can potentially play tackle. Those are 2 things that I think would actually benefit the Steelers.

heard that before but:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/branden-albert?id=660

Analysis

Positives: Rare size and athleticism for the guard position. ... Good initial quickness. ... Can get to and block effectively at the second level. ... Flashes violence in his initial hand punch. ... Good recoil and settle in pass protection. ... Massive player who can absorb the bull rush and anchor effectively. ... When he plays with leverage can be a very effective drive blocker. ... Ascending prospect who flashed foot quickness and balance in two starts at left tackle in 2007.

Negatives: A bit top-heavy. ... Can struggle against lesser players when he tires and plays with too high of a pad level. ... Good quickness to generate initial block, but too often doesn't sustain long enough. ... Flashes nastiness, but needs to play with more consistency. ... Marginal lateral quickness to pull.

[Slaine]

Joe "Red" Bryant, DL, Texas A&M

That's what I've been waiting to hear. I just hope that Bryant is still there in the 2nd.

[TMC]

From the people we have visits with and taking in consideration that GOSDER CHERIOUS is projected to be a second round guy. I wonder if Jeff Otah is not there it looks like the steelers are thinking DL first round.....

Cherilus is considered a late 1st, early 2nd. It is felt by many that he may be the guy we are targeting. He would probably start at RT for us as a rookie and would kick Colon inside.

[1st & 10]

Hope it's not Cherilus. The article pointed out that he lacks lateral agility and quickness.
The two most important traits you want a tackle to use. He can run block, he has size,
but I am concerned he will get beaten by quick ends, even at RT.

[BermudaSteel]

Hope it's not Cherilus. The article pointed out that he lacks lateral agility and quickness.
The two most important traits you want a tackle to use. He can run block, he has size,
but I am concerned he will get beaten by quick ends, even at RT.

And this, my friends, is the reason I want BPA (skill position in the 1st round)...we just have an unfortunate placement in this year's draft and the needs that we require up front. With NO real blue chip LT at that position nor the right side...all the options on the OL seem as "reaches" for the 1st.

But that's my opinion.

[TMC]

Well, I have saw that they plan on bringing in Branden Albert for a visit next week. I think he will draw consideration with the 23rd pick. I just HOPE that their plan is to play him at guard, not tackle. I simply do not believe he has the wheels to play tackle and that is the reason why I feel his draft stock has risen. I rank him in the mix with the other guards. But, if a guard is what they want in the first, IMO, it is a preference thing. Schuening does not pull as well as Albert but Albert is not as consistent as Schuening. Rachal pulls better than Schuening and is more consistent than Albert.

Honestly, you could probably throw all three in a bag and whoever shook out would be fine.

[TMC]

Hey, maybe if Albert AND Cherilus are there @23, the Steelers trade it down and grab another pick. If a team like the Fins go with Long in the first, as was suggested, they may want to get back into the QB mix. They could package the 32nd and 64th picks to come up. The Falcons have plenty of firepower to do the same. If Kenny Phillips falls like some are predicting, I would not rule out someone like the Packers or Giants jumping up to grab the best safety.

Then, IMO, the drafting of Cherilus and Albert would represent much better value.

[BLITZ 43]

The more I am reading the more I feel like we don't go oline in the first. I think oline is very deep and if we miss out on Long, Clady, and Williams then what is the difference between the # 4-8 ot's not very much IMO. I feel that way not because the 4-8 ot's are bad but because there is so much talent there. I have been an oline preacher and still am however we have a shot at guys like wr's Hardy, Sweed, Doucet, Manningham and maybe Jackson, rb's Stewart and maybe Mendenhall but I doubt it. But the key here is guys like dt's Bulmer and Bryant who I like a lot. If we go dl or wr in the first then could we end up with a guy like Cousins at ot in the 2nd? I am very high on Cousins and am not sure he will fall to us in the 2nd but if he did we could end up with something like Hardy and Cousins in the first 2 rounds. It all depends what you like do we go Albert and say a wr or dline in the first 2 rounds? I don't like that cause like many here I don't want Albert as a tackle and if we draft him and don't go tackle in round 2 we still have a hole there and a log jam at guard. I know we have had this Albert debate in other threads but TMC's post on lineman really should open our eyes as to is Albert really that much better then guards 2 & 3, and if not then we sould take him that high cause the same kinda talent may be had in rounds 2 & 3. JMO Good post TMC!

[FistfullofRings]

How do you allow 6 1/2 sacks but no pressures?

Whenever a pass rusher got close, he'd say "Awe, fuck it." and give up the sack.

[Balls&YourWord]

Hey, maybe if Albert AND Cherilus are there @23, the Steelers trade it down and grab another pick. If a team like the Fins go with Long in the first, as was suggested, they may want to get back into the QB mix. They could package the 32nd and 64th picks to come up. The Falcons have plenty of firepower to do the same. If Kenny Phillips falls like some are predicting, I would not rule out someone like the Packers or Giants jumping up to grab the best safety.

Then, IMO, the drafting of Cherilus and Albert would represent much better value.

I can really see the Steelers trading down from their spot this year, it'd be a good draft to do it. A lot of guys they are looking at, like Hardy, Albert, Cherilus, ect... you could move back and get one of those guys late in the first or early in the second, and then pick up that extra third rounder as well. If they're not targeting someone specifically... and usually with the Steelers they are, but with some of the comments the FO has made, I think they might be a lot more open minded this year than in year's past. If there's a run on corners and they're going quick, or if someone is targeting a top wideout, or something along those lines, I think the Steelers are at a good spot to be in a position to move back.

I think Green Bay would make a great trading partner, especially in that scenario where they'd want one of the top CB's still left on the board. They've already got two second round picks, and they should be getting an extra fourth rounder projected as compensation from losing Ahman Green and the contract and playing time he got with the Texans. Thompson has been accumulating talent, but now that he's got a very solid core of players, he might be more inclined to plug specific holes, and I don't know if he's going to keep all those picks. I think the Steelers would be a nice match with the Packers, to move down and get their 30th pick, as well as the 92nd pick in the third round. Then, if I'm Colbert I move my original third rounder and either a fourth or fifth to get back into the second round. That way I'd have four picks in the top 100 and three of them in the top 65. You pull something like that, and you could end up with this:

First Round: James Hardy, WR, Indiana
Second Round: Carl Nicks, OT, Nebraska
Second Round: Chilo Rachal, OG, USC
Third Round: Red Bryant, DT, Texas A&M

That'd be four very solid players right there, anything else after that would be gravy.

[BermudaSteel]

First Round: James Hardy, WR, Indiana or Limas Sweed, WR, Texas
Second Round: Carl Nicks, OT, Nebraska
Second Round: Chilo Rachal, OG, USC
Third Round: Red Bryant, DT, Texas A&M


I like either option in the 1st and I'm with you all the other picks...

[Hines57]

Jake Long is a stud

[Slaine]

If we pass with Red on the board in the 2nd I'll be really pissed. He won't make it to us in the 3rd.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

First Round: James Hardy, WR, Indiana
Second Round: Carl Nicks, OT, Nebraska
Second Round: Chilo Rachal, OG, USC
Third Round: Red Bryant, DT, Texas A&M

That'd be four very solid players right there, anything else after that would be gravy.

If this were to happen I would cream my shorts. This would be one of the best possible scenario's.

[stevew]

Swapping our 1/2/4 for ATL's two early 2nds(3rd and 6th) and their early 4th would be a pretty even chart value trade. We could certainly get two very good players at that position. Especially if our first couple choices get taken early. ATL might be interested in moving up for a QB, as it makes a ton more sense to grab one in the first and get him signed to a longer deal.

[Coryea]

Give me a top tier OT and I'll be happy, we've neglected that position for awhile now, and it's really showing. We need a TE, we took a TE, we needed a WR we took a WR, we needed LB's we took LB's, we needed a QB we took a QB, why neglect one of the most important positions on your team if there is a top tier guy there.

[BermudaSteel]

Give me a top tier OT and I'll be happy, we've neglected that position for awhile now, and it's really showing. We need a TE, we took a TE, we needed a WR we took a WR, we needed LB's we took LB's, we needed a QB we took a QB, why neglect one of the most important positions on your team if there is a top tier guy there.

At #23 - there won't be a TOP TIER OT...Sorry, Coryea...it's the facts.

I/we all know and believe what you're saying here; but the ONLY way to suffice it is by trading up and thus LOSING picks later.

This, I believe, is NOT an option---because we do have other concerns.

[Coryea]

At #23 - there won't be a TOP TIER OT...Sorry, Coryea...it's the facts.

I/we all know and believe what you're saying here; but the ONLY way to suffice it is by trading up and thus LOSING picks later.

This, I believe, is NOT an option---because we do have other concerns.

We traded up to get Holmes and Polamalu, why not trade up to get Williams?
I'd be happy with Cherilus at #23 we need a RT too.

[FistfullofRings]

At #23 - there won't be a TOP TIER OT...Sorry, Coryea...it's the facts..

Well, what is the definition of Top Tier? Jake Long won't be there at 23, I'll give you that. It doesn't look like Clady will be either but at least one of the next 2 or 3 top OL prospects will be.

I'd consider Santonio, Troy, and Heath Miller all to have been Top Tier at their positions coming out and they were drafted not too far from 23.

[FistfullofRings]

We traded up to get Holmes and Polamalu, why not trade up to get Williams?
I'd be happy with Cherilus at #23 we need a RT too.

If Ben could slip to 10 (or 11?), Williams could certainly slip to 23. I like Williams but I wouldn't trade up for him.

[BermudaSteel]

We traded up to get Holmes and Polamalu, why not trade up to get Williams?
I'd be happy with Cherilus at #23 we need a RT too.

I'm completely with you on this..don't get me wrong...

But, w/ only 6 picks this year----I guess we'll have to suffice w/ a RT this go round...the blue chip LT must be a diamond in the rough...

[BermudaSteel]

Well, what is the definition of Top Tier? Jake Long won't be there at 23, I'll give you that. It doesn't look like Clady will be either but at least one of the next 2 or 3 top OL prospects will be.

I'd consider Santonio, Troy, and Heath Miller all to have been Top Tier at their positions coming out and they were drafted not too far from 23.

Like I said Fists - I was only making a point of losing one of the 'dear six picks' that we have...

Sometimes my namesake, Kevin C, does a fine job w/ the FO and we get the guys above...

Other times...he re-signs Eason and Kirschke...:mad:

[Steeltime]

At #23 - there won't be a TOP TIER OT...Sorry, Coryea...it's the facts.

One tackle has played LT for four seasons at a major college program. He has played against top competition and talented pass rushers. He has played very well. He is a high character guy.

He is a fraction of an inch below 6'5". He was targeted, pre-combine, in the top 15 picks. He worked out well in the combine and had no real "knock" against him other than his height. He played well in practice and the game in the Senior Bowl.

Sam Baker could be a very good LT. This article is interesting as it suggests that Baker would be a better RT given his punch and strength.

I had thought that Baker's weakness was his lack of strength ... if that is not the case, he would be a very viable first round talent. If he is not plagued by injuries, he will wind up starting for somebody at tackle in 2008.

(The issue I have with Baker is his history of leg injuries - knee, hamstring. Risky to take a guy with an injury history in the first round.)

[Coryea]

If Ben could slip to 10 (or 11?), Williams could certainly slip to 23. I like Williams but I wouldn't trade up for him.

I'm not really in favor of trading up because we need picks, but if he's there a couple spots before we pick, I wouldn't be upset if we made a move to get him.

I'm not sure I'd call it a slip if he did make it to us. Last year was the first year draft since 2003 that 3 OT's went in the first round, and Staley was the 3rd guy at pick #28. Teams as of late have seemed to shy away from OT's in the first round for some reason. From 1991 to 2003 every first round had at least 3 OT's going, alot of times it was 4 OT's.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

Swapping our 1/2/4 for ATL's two early 2nds(3rd and 6th) and their early 4th would be a pretty even chart value trade. We could certainly get two very good players at that position. Especially if our first couple choices get taken early. ATL might be interested in moving up for a QB, as it makes a ton more sense to grab one in the first and get him signed to a longer deal.

Something about this does not quite make sense to me. We lose a first, but gain a second. Other than that, just swapping positions in rd 2 and 4.

[Garrett]

Path to the Draft was on last night on NFL Network and they did a segment on Branden Albert. He looked plenty quick pulling (lateral agility). Charles Davis and Charlie Casserly both agreed that he is, far and away the best guard, and both saw his switch to LT in the pros as a no brainer. Casserly said teams are whispering, but not talking loudly about this guy, and his sentiments are that Albert WILL go between 10-20, and COULD potentially slip into the top 10 before all is said and done.

Just relaying information here, but I do like the guys on NFL network. Mayock was not on to weigh in. Sort of wish he was.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

Saw that too. Albert did seem to impress. Although I don't like the idea of moving a player out of position to fill a roster hole, it's a nice option to have with an athletic guard who can play tackle.

[Coryea]

Path to the Draft was on last night on NFL Network and they did a segment on Branden Albert. He looked plenty quick pulling (lateral agility). Charles Davis and Charlie Casserly both agreed that he is, far and away the best guard, and both saw his switch to LT in the pros as a no brainer. Casserly said teams are whispering, but not talking loudly about this guy, and his sentiments are that Albert WILL go between 10-20, and COULD potentially slip into the top 10 before all is said and done.

Just relaying information here, but I do like the guys on NFL network. Mayock was not on to weigh in. Sort of wish he was.

That pushes one more player down to us.

[stevew]

Something about this does not quite make sense to me. We lose a first, but gain a second. Other than that, just swapping positions in rd 2 and 4.

It's a 12 pick drop from our first rounder, 16 pick jump in our 2nd, and 18 pick jump in the 4th. With 2 in the top 37, I think you have a pretty good chance of landing a couple very good players. I was just looking at mocks, and there seems to be a ton of volatility between 23-34, meaning we may be able to get at least 2 of the 5 guys we target at 23 at 34. And 37 is a pick where there's still a good chance of getting a guy we have a first round grade on as well.

Plus our 3rd and the new 4th get us near the top of the 3rd round if a guy you were targeting for the 2nd is still there.

Depending on how things fall you can end up with 2 guys you had a first round grade on, and one with a 2nd round grade, all for losing a 4th round pick.

[BermudaSteel]

I'm not saying Albert CAN'T play LT...I, like Lefty, believe that if your a G...then stay a G.

Last year we had a G at C and Ben took almost a record number of sacks...

No thanks. I'll wait in line for the next option...

[TMC]

First Round: James Hardy, WR, Indiana
Second Round: Carl Nicks, OT, Nebraska
Second Round: Chilo Rachal, OG, USC
Third Round: Red Bryant, DT, Texas A&M

That'd be four very solid players right there, anything else after that would be gravy.

I have been reading where some other WRs are passing Hardy in draftniks and scouts eyes. Mike Mayock does not even have Hardy in his top 5. If you browse the draft sites, here is where Hardy (might as well list Sweed as well-in parenthesis) are ranked:
NFLDraftCountdown: 5th (1st)
ScoutNFLExperts: 12th (6th)
NFLDraftScout: 5th (4th)
NFLDraftStock: 5th (4th)
Draft XChange: 3rd (7th)
GBN: 6th (4th)
FootballsFuture: 4th (3rd)

The more I see the rankings, the more I think we can get Hardy in the 2nd. So, if the choice were mine and I was able to trade down, I would draft:

1st Round-Cherilus or Sam Baker.
2nd Round-James Hardy
2nd Round-Red Bryant
3rd Round-Roy Schuening/Mike Pollack/Chilo Rachal

[TMC]

No offense to the guys on the NFL Network, but Albert allowed 6 1/2 sacks in his last 25 games. Do you really think that if given more space he will handle the NFL athletes better than he did the college guys?

I do not.

[Garrett]

No offense to the guys on the NFL Network, but Albert allowed 6 1/2 sacks in his last 25 games. Do you really think that if given more space he will handle the NFL athletes better than he did the college guys?

I do not.

I hear ya....but he did compare himself to Walter Jones when interviewed!

[Sphinx9780]

see, in my opp., if a player is drafted for a certain pos like lt or rt, then play him at it , dont change his pos, doing this alot of times lead to be a bust, for example, gallery with the raiders, was a first rd pick, changed his norm spot on the line, and he was terrible, finaly moved him back to what he was used to and improved greatly. drafting a play just cuz hes best ot on board doesnt mean nething, he has to beable to play his pos where hes used to playing it

[Vader]

No offense to the guys on the NFL Network, but Albert allowed 6 1/2 sacks in his last 25 games. Do you really think that if given more space he will handle the NFL athletes better than he did the college guys?

I do not.

I watched the episode and agree. Anyone can cherry pick film of a play or even a player running in shorts to make a point. After I saw the stats of his sack totals I absolutely don't want him at LT. If he gives up that many sacks as a RG against college kids imagine what a real NFL RDE will do to him...

I'd love to move down in this draft. I'm sorry but I don't see much difference in the OL after the first couple of studs. We need help at WR, OL, DL, and DB. I don't care which order but get someone with talent not just to fill a hole.

[dobre shunka]

I'm about done with Mayock. I really hoped he'd be good, given he goes mainly by film. But geez, the guy is like a pinwheel in a tornado. Every update someone makes a sudden leap or fall. Manningham went from #1 WR to outside his top 5 to back in. Doucet went from #2 to a milkcarton. Flowers came outta nowhere to be his #1 CB and #7 player overall, then down to #5. Now his latest, Mayo goes apparently from the ranks of the undrafted all the way to #1 ILB. I agree with that ranking, but where the hell was he before? He had Larsen as #5, and that guy is a late day 2 pick. Mayo was behind him somewhere. Seriously?

[Balls&YourWord]

I have been reading where some other WRs are passing Hardy in draftniks and scouts eyes. Mike Mayock does not even have Hardy in his top 5. If you browse the draft sites, here is where Hardy (might as well list Sweed as well-in parenthesis) are ranked:
NFLDraftCountdown: 5th (1st)
ScoutNFLExperts: 12th (6th)
NFLDraftScout: 5th (4th)
NFLDraftStock: 5th (4th)
Draft XChange: 3rd (7th)
GBN: 6th (4th)
FootballsFuture: 4th (3rd)

The more I see the rankings, the more I think we can get Hardy in the 2nd. So, if the choice were mine and I was able to trade down, I would draft:

1st Round-Cherilus or Sam Baker.
2nd Round-James Hardy
2nd Round-Red Bryant
3rd Round-Roy Schuening/Mike Pollack/Chilo Rachal

I'm coming around to the idea of Cherilus, but I'm still having trouble getting over the idea that I don't think he could ever develop into a NFL LT. However, I think they could plug him in right away at RT though and he'd be solid, and that would then allow them to move Colon into guard where I think he is more suited to play. I'd like the Baker pick as well, I don't know why his value has dropped down as low as it is now apparently.

I just don't know about Hardy slipping down that low. I can definitely see him not going until the second, but with his measurables and the fact that he's just a natural super athlete, I can't see him lasting too long in that second round, but you never know. Getting Cherilus or Baker and then landing Hardy in the second would be an absolute steal. The scenario you've got laid out is sort of a dream scenario for me, because that would be perfect draft in my eyes. You address the line with a tackle and a guard/center, you get a young impact player on the defensive line, and you get a big target for Ben that can stretch the field and let you move Ward into the slot where I feel he's more suited for at this point in his career. I'd be jumping for joy after a draft like that.

I will say this, I'm really liking most of the guys the Steelers have either talked to or worked out in Pittsburgh. And considering they usually draft 3-4 guys that they personally visit with or interview, I'm cautiously optimistic that Colbert, Tomlin, and company can put together a really nice draft in April, and that would make for two solid drafts in a row.

[deljzc]

Sacks in college is a completely overrated statistic. Systems and overall talent on your team account for sacks much more than individuals.

Mike Pollack was calling the blocking calls for an Arizona State team that gave up 53 SACKS in 2007. That's over 4 per game. Yet he's talked about on here like a savior at our center position.

Judging offensive linemen by sacks allowed is a silly stat that's only gaining momemtum because there's nothing else to measure.

[BLITZ 43]

I have been reading where some other WRs are passing Hardy in draftniks and scouts eyes. Mike Mayock does not even have Hardy in his top 5. If you browse the draft sites, here is where Hardy (might as well list Sweed as well-in parenthesis) are ranked:
NFLDraftCountdown: 5th (1st)
ScoutNFLExperts: 12th (6th)
NFLDraftScout: 5th (4th)
NFLDraftStock: 5th (4th)
Draft XChange: 3rd (7th)
GBN: 6th (4th)
FootballsFuture: 4th (3rd)

The more I see the rankings, the more I think we can get Hardy in the 2nd. So, if the choice were mine and I was able to trade down, I would draft:

1st Round-Cherilus or Sam Baker.
2nd Round-James Hardy
2nd Round-Red Bryant
3rd Round-Roy Schuening/Mike Pollack/Chilo Rachal



I would love them picks, I am glad I am not the guy who would have to choose between Hardy and Bryant in the 2nd and all 3 of them guys in the 3rd. I do know one thing is whoever they would pick I would not be upset at all.

[Balls&YourWord]

I'm about done with Mayock. I really hoped he'd be good, given he goes mainly by film. But geez, the guy is like a pinwheel in a tornado. Every update someone makes a sudden leap or fall. Manningham went from #1 WR to outside his top 5 to back in. Doucet went from #2 to a milkcarton. Flowers came outta nowhere to be his #1 CB and #7 player overall, then down to #5. Now his latest, Mayo goes apparently from the ranks of the undrafted all the way to #1 ILB. I agree with that ranking, but where the hell was he before? He had Larsen as #5, and that guy is a late day 2 pick. Mayo was behind him somewhere. Seriously?

I'm still stunned by his ranking of Brian Brohm behind Flacco and Chad Henne. I don't get it all. Brohm was the #1 QB in the country coming out high school, and has done nothing to disappoint in his college career, even with a complete coaching change and injuries in the midst of his last two seasons. His career college completion percentage, TD rate, TD to INT ratio, his yards per attempt, and most other meaningful QB stats are significantly better than anything Matt Ryan has ever put up. And somehow, Matt Ryan has ascended to become the top player in this draft class, and now Brohm is suddenly in Mayock's eyes the 4th best QB. I think Brohm is the best QB in this class, he's the most fundamentally and technically sound QB coming out, he was by far the most productive, and I think he's got the most upside -- I can really see him topping out as a Carson Palmer like QB. Not to say that I think Matt Ryan will be a bust, because I'm not, but I think Brohm is still the best QB coming out this year, and I don't understand how his value has fallen so low.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

I watched the episode and agree. Anyone can cherry pick film of a play or even a player running in shorts to make a point. After I saw the stats of his sack totals I absolutely don't want him at LT. If he gives up that many sacks as a RG against college kids imagine what a real NFL RDE will do to him...

I'd love to move down in this draft. I'm sorry but I don't see much difference in the OL after the first couple of studs. We need help at WR, OL, DL, and DB. I don't care which order but get someone with talent not just to fill a hole.

I think this may be our best option. Hopefully one of the teams picking early in the second will get desperate for one of the QB's or O-Linemen still there at 23. Ideally it would be nice to drop in the first and gain an extra pick while staying in RD1.

[TMC]

I hear ya....but he did compare himself to Walter Jones when interviewed!

I can compare myself to Brad Pitt but that does not mean I get to bang Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Anniston.

[TMC]

Sacks in college is a completely overrated statistic. Systems and overall talent on your team account for sacks much more than individuals.

Mike Pollack was calling the blocking calls for an Arizona State team that gave up 53 SACKS in 2007. That's over 4 per game. Yet he's talked about on here like a savior at our center position.

Judging offensive linemen by sacks allowed is a silly stat that's only gaining momemtum because there's nothing else to measure.

Systems and overall talent do not account for sacks in the NFL? Well, if sacks don't matter, our line should be dandy. We do not even need to draft anyone.

Albert gave up 1 sack in 2006, so that means he gave up 5 1/2 in 2007.

With that said, I am not thrilled that Pollack gave up 7 sacks either.

[Steeltime]

No offense to the guys on the NFL Network, but Albert allowed 6 1/2 sacks in his last 25 games. Do you really think that if given more space he will handle the NFL athletes better than he did the college guys?

Accurate point. But he has the physical tools and meanness to be a very good LG in the NFL. He gave up one sack very four games. Great? No.

Will he give up some sacks his rookie year? Probably. But unlike scrubs like Mahan, he will get better next year, and the next, and could turn into a dominant guard who anchors the interior line for years.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

Systems and overall talent do not account for sacks in the NFL? Well, if sacks don't matter, our line should be dandy. We do not even need to draft anyone.

Albert gave up 1 sack in 2006, so that means he gave up 5 1/2 in 2007.

With that said, I am not thrilled that Pollack gave up 7 sacks either.

I could be wrong, but wasn't he move to LT last year?

[TMC]

I could be wrong, but wasn't he move to LT last year?

He played LT in 2 games last season when the starter was injured. I have read some reports that stated he did well and others that said he did okay.

The other 10, he played guard.

[DrunkinIrishman]

Thanks for the read TMC. If the Steelers take Alberts, I guess I could live with that because he is the consensus number one guard who may be able to play some tackle. But if we go in another direction I would not mind seeing them picking up McGlynn in the fourth or fifth. He was the best lineman for Pitt while there except last year because of injury (Otah was). He does not have the natural gifts as some of the others, but is one of those players that get it done. I think he could be a starting guard in this league. He also could play some right tackle if needed. When healthy I actually like him more than Otah. Otah does have more potential upside but sometimes we know how that works.

[Idioteque]

I'm still stunned by his ranking of Brian Brohm behind Flacco and Chad Henne. I don't get it all. Brohm was the #1 QB in the country coming out high school, and has done nothing to disappoint in his college career, even with a complete coaching change and injuries in the midst of his last two seasons. His career college completion percentage, TD rate, TD to INT ratio, his yards per attempt, and most other meaningful QB stats are significantly better than anything Matt Ryan has ever put up. And somehow, Matt Ryan has ascended to become the top player in this draft class, and now Brohm is suddenly in Mayock's eyes the 4th best QB. I think Brohm is the best QB in this class, he's the most fundamentally and technically sound QB coming out, he was by far the most productive, and I think he's got the most upside -- I can really see him topping out as a Carson Palmer like QB. Not to say that I think Matt Ryan will be a bust, because I'm not, but I think Brohm is still the best QB coming out this year, and I don't understand how his value has fallen so low.

Bingo.

His stock has fallen due to his team imploding. Which he could hardly be blamed for. For my money, Brohm's the top QB and a sla-dunk top-10 pick.

[deljzc]

Systems and overall talent do not account for sacks in the NFL? Well, if sacks don't matter, our line should be dandy. We do not even need to draft anyone.

Albert gave up 1 sack in 2006, so that means he gave up 5 1/2 in 2007.

With that said, I am not thrilled that Pollack gave up 7 sacks either.

Our offensive line doesn't only need to be upgraded because of the sack issue. I fully attibute MANY of those sacks to the system, quarterback and support positions (tight ends, running backs and wide receivers).

Our offensive line needs help because we are failing in the run game just as much as we are failing in pass blocking (maybe more). Football Outsiders have shown a steady decline in our running offense efficiency the last two seasons. Part of that I blame on Parker, but some also on the offensive line.

We also need upgrades everywhere because no one's worth a second contract out of Kemo, Essex and Starks (especially at starter money). And Smith doesn't deserve a third contract. Maybe if Kemo or Essex agree to backup money I'd agree, but in reality they are both career backups.

This team has no future all-pros along the offensive line at all. And that's an embaressment to the way Colbert's been handling the offensive line situation around here. This is the year to do it. Spend the high draft picks and get it done.

We're overthinking this whole draft. We need legit, young, offensive line talent and this draft class has it in spades. Just get the best guy on the board when our pick comes up and move on to the rest of the draft. Quit thinking some guy may fall to us in round 2, or some project is round 3 or 4 is the answer. We've been trying project 3rd rounders for the last 5 seasons. That's obviously not good enough.

[Vader]

Spend the high draft picks and get it done.

We're overthinking this whole draft. We need legit, young, offensive line talent and this draft class has it in spades. Just get the best guy on the board when our pick comes up and move on to the rest of the draft. Quit thinking some guy may fall to us in round 2, or some project is round 3 or 4 is the answer. We've been trying project 3rd rounders for the last 5 seasons. That's obviously not good enough.

And we've won the SB in one of those 5 seasons. What we "need" is good quality players at several positions. We don't need to reach for a 2nd round talent in the first round. Quit thinking that because you draft an OL in the first round that he is magically going to be a stud. We need to draft quality people not people just to fill a roster spot.

[TMC]

We had the leading rusher in the NFL until Parker went down and our run game was failing us. And, as far as Football Outsiders stats, here is where they have our offensive line ranked:
2007
Run Blocking-19th best, 4.12 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-31st, sack rate 10.1%

2006
Run Blocking-22nd best, 4.16 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-25th, sack rate 7.4%

2005
Run Blocking-12th best, 4.29 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-23rd, sack rate 7.7%
This line won the Super Bowl. It gained about an extra foot on running plays and allowed @14 less sacks.

2004
Run Blocking-4th best, 4.56 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-28th, sack rate 8.9%

2003
Run Blocking-26th best, 3.82 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-23rd, sack rate 7.1%


This line has deteriorated some, but not significantly enough to absolutely panic. And, simply throwing draft picks at a position does not improve it. We threw a first rounder at WR in 1999 and that did not help at all. Just because you pick a guy in the first does not make him a great player.....it just makes him rich and a first round pick.

[TMC]

And we've won the SB in one of those 5 seasons. What we "need" is good quality players at several positions. We don't need to reach for a 2nd round talent in the first round. Quit thinking that because you draft an OL in the first round that he is magically going to be a stud. We need to draft quality people not people just to fill a roster spot.

I think I will dust off the seat next to me and save it for you. For the first time in a while, I think we are absolutely on the same page.

You draft the BPA. If there are several guys close, you take the BPA at the position you need/wish to upgrade.

[deljzc]

We had the leading rusher in the NFL until Parker went down and our run game was failing us. And, as far as Football Outsiders stats, here is where they have our offensive line ranked:
2007
Run Blocking-19th best, 4.12 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-31st, sack rate 10.1%

2006
Run Blocking-22nd best, 4.16 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-25th, sack rate 7.4%

2005
Run Blocking-12th best, 4.29 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-23rd, sack rate 7.7%
This line won the Super Bowl. It gained about an extra foot on running plays and allowed @14 less sacks.

2004
Run Blocking-4th best, 4.56 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-28th, sack rate 8.9%

2003
Run Blocking-26th best, 3.82 Adjust line yards
Pass Blocking-23rd, sack rate 7.1%


This line has deteriorated some, but not significantly enough to absolutely panic. And, simply throwing draft picks at a position does not improve it. We threw a first rounder at WR in 1999 and that did not help at all. Just because you pick a guy in the first does not make him a great player.....it just makes him rich and a first round pick.

You don't call going from 4th to 19th/20th in run blocking a significant drop? Or being 31st in pass blocking bad? You can't go much further down than that.

My god guys, what are you smoking?

The talent level IS there in the offensive line at pick #23. You guys keep trying to talk everyone out of that, but that's just not true. You just keep coming up with more and more excuses to ignore it. I think you guys are nuts. And I think the Steelers would be nuts to pick anything BUT an O-linemen in round 1 (unless there were 6 off the board before we pick). There is just as much depth at all the other positions you guys are drooling over as compared to the O-line talent ranked #10 and later.

This aversion to picking an O-linemen is just mind boggling to me.

[TMC]

You don't call going from 4th to 19th/20th in run blocking a significant drop? Or being 31st in pass blocking bad? You can't go much further down than that.

My god guys, what are you smoking?

The talent level IS there in the offensive line at pick #23. You guys keep trying to talk everyone out of that, but that's just not true. You just keep coming up with more and more excuses to ignore it. I think you guys are nuts. And I think the Steelers would be nuts to pick anything BUT an O-linemen in round 1 (unless there were 6 off the board before we pick). There is just as much depth at all the other positions you guys are drooling over as compared to the O-line talent ranked #10 and later.

This aversion to picking an O-linemen is just mind boggling to me.

Our offensive line needs help because we are failing in the run game just as much as we are failing in pass blocking (maybe more). Football Outsiders have shown a steady decline in our running offense efficiency the last two seasons.

When did 2004 fall into the LAST TWO SEASONS? In fact, the last 2 seasons would be 2006 and 2007, where, according the the source YOU quoted, we moved up from 22nd to 19th.

And, last season, 2007 so it does not get mixed up, the Steelers finished 3rd in the NFL in rushing. In 2006, they finished 6th. The other seasons they finished 1st (2005) and 1st (2004). While the running game has not been the #1 rushing attack in the NFL, the dropoff is being exaggerated.

And, lets not forget we lost our starting LT and the key backup LT to end the season. Of course, I am sure that does not figure into your amazing statistics showing the demise of our running game. I am sure Parker leading the NFL until his injury also does not factor in.



And, the TALENT LEVEL MAY or MAY NOT be there at 23. You can babble on and on about that ALL you like. If teams take the top 3-4 OTs then it is not there. If you look at the BIGGER NAME draftniks rankings, they do not have 6 offensive linemen ranked in the top 25.

Scouts Inc has 4 offensive linemen ranked in the Top 25 (Long, Clady, Otah, Williams). They have Albert 28th. So, they have 5 in the top 30.

The Sports XChange, who powers CBS and NFL.com with their info, has 3 OTs in the top 20 and Otah at 22. They have Albert at 24. That is 5 in the top 30 and their 6th is at 34.

NFLDraftCountdown has 3 OTs in the Top 23. Albert comes in at #25 and Williams comes in at #26. That is 5 in the top 30.

The simple fact is, Branden Albert was considered a 2nd round guy UNTIL Mike Mayock started deep throating the guy. Hell, he did not even hit Kiper's big board until March. WTF did he actually do to make himself a better football player between the time he declared until now? Nothing. Not a damn thing. If I were a draft prospect, I would definitely hire his agent and pimp, because they are working the hell out of things to keep him on everyone's lips and his stock is soaring because of it.

There are 4 offensive linemen that are ranked by most to be selected in the top 25 and they are Long, Clady, Otah, and Williams. There are a few that have secured their position because of the Senior Bowl, guys like Baker, Cherilus, Pollack, and McGlynn. But, those guys that have only ran in shorts and see their stock explode will disappoint...they ALMOST ALWAYS do.

They are all show and no go. If we take a guy like Cherilus at 23, we have not fully utilized the value of our 23rd pick. IF the rankings are anywhere near correct, drafting a 30th ranked player means we gave up talent to get a need.....and that fucks you in the long run......in Troy Edwards proportions.

[Vader]

I think I will dust off the seat next to me and save it for you. For the first time in a while, I think we are absolutely on the same page.

You draft the BPA. If there are several guys close, you take the BPA at the position you need/wish to upgrade.

I've never had a problem taking the BPA for a need position. I have a problem taking the BAP if he is not a need (like a TE or QB in this draft).

I would love to draft the next great OT in this draft but that ain't going to happen because we draft so far down. IMHO you can get so much better value at other positions this year because of the depth of this draft. Taking an OL, especially a freaking OG (that would make what 6 OGs on this team?) in this draft at #23 is automatically a reach with the talent left at DL, WR, and DB.

I just hope the FO doesn't fall in love with someone and take him even if a much better talent is there to be had.

[slashsteel]

Basically IMO if there is a better WR , D-line prospect, OLB,CB or RB sitting there they need to take them. Then look to see what OT is available in 2 or3. I agree the draft should be all about value.......................

[deljzc]

The running game DID go down. From 4.16 adjusted AYPC to 4.12 AYPC. Jeez, if you're going to nit-pick the statement our run offense has declined over the last two season because of placement in the league (and to me it's still a big drop off since 2004 and proves my point), then I'm never going to make sense to you guys. If you don't watch the games and know something's not right with our running attack and you just base it on yards and "Willie Parker is leading the league in rushing so everything is fine", you don't know football and there's no reason to debate anything.

And as I have said previously, there is NO big board that is so perfect the #23rd guy is better than the #30 guy. But almost ALL draft boards have Albert, Cherilus, Otah and Williams in that range. The order isn't important. It's the concensus they are in that range that matters. If there is a choice between 2 or 3 of those talents when we're on the clock, we HAVE to take one.

If you pass then, Nicks and Baker WILL be gone by #53. And there is a significant drop off after them at OT and to me we'd be doing the same thing as drafting the Starks, Essex and Colons of the world. Okay players, but not nearly good enough to get us back to where we need to be in the trenches. Not good enough to replace the talent leaving in Smith, Faneca and Hartings (all top 40 picks).

I don't see an alternative. And I certainly don't see an elite talent dropping to us that would convince me otherwise between those offensive linemen. Not one. Even if the great big boards you're referencing all have some player 2-3 spots higher. That's just not as big or definitive difference in talent as you guys are making it out to be.

Again.... I see people around here trying to come up with any and all reasons NOT to draft an offensive linemen and for the life of me I can't understand why. I really think, if you don't want one now, you'll never want one, in any draft, ever in round 1. That's crazy. To you there will always be a fancy tall receiver or some sub 4.4 speed cornerback or a hybrid DE/OLB. All better athletes on paper for sure, but they don't equal winning football games.

We are in the process of losing very good talented players on the offensive line. Hartings in '06, Faneca in '07 and probably Smith in '08. You're plan to just keep plugging in late round picks isn't a good or viable plan to keep this franchise moving forward and not backward. In no way do I support that kind of thinking.

This are indisputable facts to me. The offensive line is in decline. The talent level is top-heavy. There should be good choices when we pick at #23.

[ARBY]

Who if anyone of note has our offensive line coached up or developed into a good to great player??? Anyone? Has he shown anything anytime or anywhere to inspire hope that he can?? Just asking because he hasn't impressed me at all...

[TMC]

The difference between 4.16 AYPC and 4.12 AYPC is 1-1/2 inches. One tenth of a yard is one tenth of 36 inches.....or 3.6 inches. They decreased by four one hundreths of an inch.

And, this also does not account for the loss of Parker, Marvel Smith, or Max Starks. Now, NOT using the AYPC, the Steelers had 2168 rushing yards on 511 carries for a YPC average of 4.2. In the final game, the Steelers ran it 19 times for 46 yards. Prior to that game, the Steelers had 492 carries for 2122 yards for an YPC average of 4.32 YPC. One game pulled the average for the season down by .12....which is significantly greater than the yearly change you are touting.

See, you talk about other people not watching or understanding football. You want to make statements about not having a reason to debate because I don't know football, yet you fail to realize we lost out starting left tackle and the key backup and STILL played the Jags late into the 4th in a playoff game. You do not want a WR but have not ONCE mentioned that we did not have a 1000 yard WR last season. Not 1. You fail to mention how pathetic our passing game was with EITHER Holmes or Ward were out. You fail to discuss how bad our secondary looked when Clark left or how bad our defense became when Aaron Smith was injured.

You do not want to even CONSIDER the fact that we have other areas of concern. We lost Hartings...FINE, we added Hartwig. We have more damn guards on our roster right now than we do any other offensive line position. In fact, we have so many guards, we have them playing tackle. You tout the need to draft a lineman in the first because we lost two first round linemen, but everyone here rides Simmons ass for his play, where was he drafted? What about Jamain Stephens? The Steelers can upgrade our offensive line. They can upgrade it in the first.....but it has to be a player that is worthy of the pick and the general consensus is that there are a handful of guys good enough to do that. If they reach, they stand the same chance of making the same mistake they did with Troy Edwards. There was not a "definitive difference" at that time.....he was considered a top 20 talent. We took the 3rd best WR when we could have selected the #1 OT (John Tait), the #1 DT (Booger McFarland), or the #1 DE (Jevon Kearse).

You want to draft the 5th best offensive lineman when we could be looking at the TOP player at his position. That is simply throwing the blinders on and failing to consider ANY other option.

And, as far as making the statement about not wanting a first round OL, I was on this board BEGGING for Kahlif Barnes over Heath Miller. I wanted Samson Satele in the 2nd last year and supported the drafting of Mangold....so you really do not know what you are talking about.

[Garrett]

Systems and overall talent do not account for sacks in the NFL? Well, if sacks don't matter, our line should be dandy. We do not even need to draft anyone.

Albert gave up 1 sack in 2006, so that means he gave up 5 1/2 in 2007.

With that said, I am not thrilled that Pollack gave up 7 sacks either.

Here's the problem with over-analyzing pass blocking ability as a tackle versus as a guard, or overall pass blocking ability based merely on sack stats.

First, I would think that pass blocking as an OT vs. OG would be different. There's a difference in that OL's proximity to the man he's blocking, there's a difference in the angles, and there's often a difference in the size of the guy you're supposed to block (i.e., a DT is usually bigger than a speed rushing DRE. These factors lead one to believe that this may not be an apples to apples comparison.

Also, in terms of looking merely at sack stats, couldn't this be an issue related to coaching and/or technique, rather than talent?

I'm not defending Albert's ability specifically, but I do think maybe the OG vs. OT thing could be apples vs. oranges, and that sack numbers shouldn't be the end-all, be-all benchmark of an OL's overall pass blocking potential.

[deljzc]

The difference between 4.16 AYPC and 4.12 AYPC is 1-1/2 inches. One tenth of a yard is one tenth of 36 inches.....or 3.6 inches. They decreased by four one hundreths of an inch.

And, this also does not account for the loss of Parker, Marvel Smith, or Max Starks. Now, NOT using the AYPC, the Steelers had 2168 rushing yards on 511 carries for a YPC average of 4.2. In the final game, the Steelers ran it 19 times for 46 yards. Prior to that game, the Steelers had 492 carries for 2122 yards for an YPC average of 4.32 YPC. One game pulled the average for the season down by .12....which is significantly greater than the yearly change you are touting.

See, you talk about other people not watching or understanding football. You want to make statements about not having a reason to debate because I don't know football, yet you fail to realize we lost out starting left tackle and the key backup and STILL played the Jags late into the 4th in a playoff game. You do not want a WR but have not ONCE mentioned that we did not have a 1000 yard WR last season. Not 1. You fail to mention how pathetic our passing game was with EITHER Holmes or Ward were out. You fail to discuss how bad our secondary looked when Clark left or how bad our defense became when Aaron Smith was injured.

You do not want to even CONSIDER the fact that we have other areas of concern. We lost Hartings...FINE, we added Hartwig. We have more damn guards on our roster right now than we do any other offensive line position. In fact, we have so many guards, we have them playing tackle. You tout the need to draft a lineman in the first because we lost two first round linemen, but everyone here rides Simmons ass for his play, where was he drafted? What about Jamain Stephens? The Steelers can upgrade our offensive line. They can upgrade it in the first.....but it has to be a player that is worthy of the pick and the general consensus is that there are a handful of guys good enough to do that. If they reach, they stand the same chance of making the same mistake they did with Troy Edwards. There was not a "definitive difference" at that time.....he was considered a top 20 talent. We took the 3rd best WR when we could have selected the #1 OT (John Tait), the #1 DT (Booger McFarland), or the #1 DE (Jevon Kearse).

You want to draft the 5th best offensive lineman when we could be looking at the TOP player at his position. That is simply throwing the blinders on and failing to consider ANY other option.

And, as far as making the statement about not wanting a first round OL, I was on this board BEGGING for Kahlif Barnes over Heath Miller. I wanted Samson Satele in the 2nd last year and supported the drafting of Mangold....so you really do not know what you are talking about.

Then I really don't understand. If you were for drafting Mangold over Holmes and Satale over Woodley, how can you NOT be for drafting Albert/Cherilus over the wide receivers and cornerbacks in this class (at least those projected to be available when we pick).

I mean, the team has failed to address the offensive line per your recommendations, yet it seems to have become less of a need for you. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

And my support of a round 1 offensive linemen doesn't mean I am ignoring all the other problems of the team. I have been critical of the front office for not persuing Bryant Johnson more heavily in free agency. I have been against the re-signing of Eason and Kirschke over a young player like Fraser (who ended up in Atlanta). I think, depending on the health of Ryan Clark, there were also cheap options at safety in free agency, at least to continue to give Anthony Smith competition (who I still have hope will be a solid, long-term starter).

I do think we will have to look at those positions in this draft. However, my needs at offensive line (at least in my eyes) can't be filled only a 3rd and/or 4th rounder. And I am not convinced there will be any O-line value (basically Nicks & Collins) left on the board when we pick at #53. With a limited number of picks, I'm also against any major trade ups.

I am trying to take into consideration all the problems with the team, but right now it starts with the trenches and I don't see a realistic plan long-term that starts with us selecting our first offensive linemen in the 3rd round this draft. Where as I can certainly see a plan which starts with O-line in round 1 and opens the door to best player available at those other problem areas you've stated (i.e. defenisve line, DB depth and wide receiver).

My belief in need vs. BPA is based on the fact I want as much leeway later in the draft because I think having options for BPA in rounds 3 and 4 is much more adventageous than BPA in round 1. I think some players slip whole rounds by the time you get to round 3 (i.e. 2nd round talents are available) and I want to have the option to take the best guys then and not be forced into having to select an offensive linemen because I haven't addressed the position in rounds 1 or 2.

[TMC]

Because Brandon Albert and Gosder Cherilus were considered 2nd round talents BEFORE the combine. They have not played ONE down of football since January and both have climbed over guys that were rated higher than them because they look better dancing around in shorts. They are the SAME players they were today that they were in January and their rise is solely because guys like Mike Mayock have raved about them. Mayock had Brandon Flowers as the 11th best player in the draft PRE-Combine.....now, he is a dud.

Just because guys look good at the combine or great in shorts does not mean they can play the game. Albert had games where he faced lesser competition and did not dominate. He plays a little high and can be subject to the bullrush. He has flaws. I wonder if Mayock was still pimping MacKenzey Bernadesu from Bentley College (his #5 interior OL pre-combine) if people would be clamouring for him as well.

We started a line last season of Smith, Faneca, Mahan, Simmons, and Colon. We retained Starks, who played better than Colon. Colon is in his first year as a starter. We could START Smith, Colon, Hartwig, Simmons, and Starks and have a better unit this year than we had last year....because sometimes players get better.

We would have the exact same backups....minus one OT. So, the glaring hole on the offensive line is not there, we are looking to draft for the future. You make the assumption that no OT will be there in the 2nd, so you are willing to force the pick in the first.....I am not. I would rather trade down in the first or up in the 2nd to draft the 2nd wave of linemen....and that is EXACTLY where Albert and Cherilus rank....in the 2nd group.

Now, while sitting at #23, it is possible that we see a guy like Phillips (S, Miami), a corner, the top WR, or potentially a stud RB fall to our position. Those players COULD represent a higher value and it is virtually impossible to know which position will have the run. Hell, we could see corners and runningbacks fly off the board at the end of the first, top of the 2nd, and be sitting in the catbirds seat with linemen.

Lastly, you base your argument that 2 OL will not be there in the 2nd (Nicks, Collins), but both of those are tackles. You throw Albert and Cherilus out in the first with the absolute certainty that Albert can play tackle...and that is a HUGE unproven belief. If he can only play guard, then we will certainly be able to find a starting caliber guard in the 2nd. Teams do it every draft.

[deljzc]

So in your book the big boards at the end of the seaons are more important than the big boards now? The whole point of the last 4 months is to sift through the pretenders and the real players. Plus, Albert wasn't on anyones radar because it was a shock he decided to leave school. Cherilus has always been a end of the 1st/beginning of the 2nd round talent. The big board is the big board. It should be MOST accurate this last month. What it was in January is irrelevant.

Second, you seem to be counting Starks as a member of this team, while I do not. I still have hope the front office is not interested in retaining Starks long-term at all. Since they established the base salary + signing bonus at $7 million, I don't want him here long term for that money.

To me that means Smith, Essex, Starks and Kemo are not under contract in 2009. I think that's a considerable portion of the existing (even if weak) talent on the line. I don't think we should push off getting O-line talent this year because next year's draft is very elite but lacking in the top end O-line talent.

After review of this draft class, I don't think Albert, Williams, Otah or Cherilus are 2nd round talents. They are legit 1st rounders to me. Only Otah has real questionmarks, but his upside is probably the highest of the four. The other three look like pretty solid choices that I'm confident will contribute in the NFL for a long time. I can't say that about most of the other options being thrown out there at #23.

Lastly, I would always consider trading down if the deal is right, although trading down and expecting the same offensive linemen to be there isn't realistic. Seattle could still look at guards. San Diego and San Fran are in the market for right tackle. Green Bay could be interested in Baker. And the bottom of the 2nd round is full of teams looking for O-linemen (Miami, Atlanta, Oakland, Carolina, Chicago). I really do see a run on offensive linemen from the end of round 1 to the beginning of round 2. I think this draft could allow for us to be the beginning of that run and get the best of the bunch (whoever that is in our eyes).

I obviously don't have as much faith in the guys we currently have on the roster as you do. I agree Smith-Colon-Hartwig-Simmons-Starks would hopefully be an improvement over last year's unit. Even with a 1st rounder added to the mix, that might be the line in game 1 of this season. However, in 2009, Smith and Starks are gone and expecting a rookie to come in from the 2009 class isn't looking realistic to me and expecting a 3rd or 4th rounder from this draft to be good enough to keep things moving in the right direction isn't good enough for me either.

[TMC]

The big boards at the end of the season are not the tell all, end all answer. But, when you have a player have a meteoric rise up draft boards between his FIRST ranking and his final ranking when he has not played ANY football between those periods, you better beware.

Here is what has happened since the season ended. Otah did not look great running around in short. Albert looked great running around in shorts. Cherilus played in the Senior Bowl and looked good in shorts. All Otah did was prove he was not a RT. All Albert did was give draftniks a solid hardon because he can run in shorts. All Cherilus did was confirm what he is, a solid RT prospect. Williams ALSO played at the Senior Bowl and the knock on him was nastiness and strength, he dispelled some of that. He solidified his presence as a middle first rounder. Cherilus solidified himself as an early 2nd rounder. Otah, who I really do not want either, has shown he could not play LT....but few really bought into the LT crap anyway.

And, all Albert has done is shown he is a good athlete for his size. The funny shit, they had YET ANOTHER promo by Mike Mayock showing Albert in pads, at Virginia, playing. He was talking him up. In EVERY great clip it showed him moving and blocking DBs. Only once did he cross the face of a DL and block him, and he caught that guy moving and used momentum to knock him over. It also showed him getting EATEN alive on a swim move where Albert got high, overextended his arms, and was flat out beaten like a drum.

Then Mayock stated Albert was his 7th BEST player in the draft. They have him ahead of Dan Connor, Rashard Mendenhall, Darren McFadden, Rodgers-Cromartie, McKelvin, ALL the other DBs, and many other guys. Do you know what that means? That means that Albert is a better PRO prospect than Alan Faneca was at this point. He is better than Shawn Andrews. He is better than every fucking guard prospect in the last 2 decades. My aching ass. They have only 1 OL ranked higher than Albert and that is Long.

Since when did a LG become more important than a LT?

As far as our line next season......who knows what Smith is going to do. I bet you did not expect the Aaron Smith extension either. And, we could see Starks signed long-term before camp......who really knows the FOs thoughts. There has been talk of a Kemo extension. The simple facts are, we have Hartwig, Simmons, Stapleton, Colon, and Mahan already under contract for next season. That could easily be 4 of the 5 starters.

They could draft another in the first. They could add another in the 2nd. Hell, there are interior guys to be had in the 3rd. Who knows, but to lock into any 1 position before you are on the clock gets you guys like Troy Edwards.

[deljzc]

I actaully did predict the Aaron Smith extension, just not at the amount he ended up with (but in hindsight, salaries have escated a lot).

TMC... we've hashed this out and it obviously comes down to your belief Albert is a 2nd round talent. I think he's actually BETTER than what I originally thought and the draftniks are starting to hear this truth coming from real NFL GM's. As the rumors keep flying, I'm starting to doubt he's even available at #23, which kind of bums me out, but I'm sure makes you super happy. At that point my pick becomes Cherilus, but I can understand the RT vs. field argument a little better from your point of view. And truthfully, even though I like Williams as a LT prospect, he doesn't seem to match up with Pittsburgh's style very well.

Just so you know, even if I do consider another player if Albert and Cherilus are off the board, it's not going to be a wide receiver. That would be a huge waste in my eyes to try and build this team with 1st rounders at both receiver positions and the tight end. I just don't believe in building teams that way, no matter the "value" when they were drafted. That's getting much to close to Matt Millen territory for my liking.

[TMC]

I really do not care if we get a WR in the first or not...I am beginning to think that the WRs slide and we may be able to get a guy like Hardy in the 2nd. We could end up with a guy in the 4th. That is fine, as long as we are getting the best players we can lay hands on with our selections. But, if a guy falls to us at #23 that is viewed as a great talent, better than the other WRs, like Santonio was, I have no problem pulling the trigger. And, if Williams is there at #23, Rachal at #55, and Pollack in the 3rd, I would not have a problem pulling the trigger on 3 OL either. I do not care what position we draft as long as we get value for our pick......and I am ALWAYS scared of guys that had that rocket ride to the top AFTER the combine.

There is talk that Phillip Merling MAY slide to us, and IMO, he ranks right there in talent with the guys mentioned in the top 15. We were lucky when Miller fell (although I wanted someone else) and we could be lucky again.

The thing with Williams, he is a left tackle and a pure pass blocking left tackle can fit almost any scheme. He is also smart, so I have no issue with his ability to adapt. I like Cherilus, just not at #23. I would love him at #32 or so....but that drop would give us another pick, possibly a 3rd....which means you land a guy like Schuening.

I would gladly take Cherilus/Schuening over Albert. IMO, that is two long-term starters for the price of 1. In a nutshell, that is my issue. Is Albert so much better than the #2 OG that he is worth giving up another guy for? IMO, he is not. Long, Clady, and Williams ARE that much better than the next guy. Merling is that much better.

That is just how I view it. And, it would not upset me AT ALL if Albert goes before we pick. I really do not feel he is that much better as an OVERALL prospect than Rachal or Schuening. He has things he does better, but they have areas where they are better than Albert. If Albert jumps up and pushes a tackle to us, even better.

I just do not want to see the Steelers lock onto a guy in a certain position and overdraft the position. We always get hurt when we do it.

[Slaine]

There is talk that Phillip Merling MAY slide to us, and IMO, he ranks right there in talent with the guys mentioned in the top 15. We were lucky when Miller fell (although I wanted someone else) and we could be lucky again.


And for a similar reason - unable to workout after the season. Having to have surgery for a sports hernia.

Let's hope that everyone else does ignore him and he falls in to our laps.

[dobre shunka]

But where does Merling fit?

[TMC]

He is a DE in the 3-4. He was 6'4"-276 at the combine. He could get drafted, get in an NFL weight room, and easily add another 10 pounds to his upper body. The thing is, he plays a power game at his size and run stopping is his strength. He can also rush the passer, but is more of a guy that works his way there instead of some speed end.

[deljzc]

I don't like Merling at all. 17 bench press reps isn't good enough to be a 3-4 end. And no amount of NFL weight training is going to fix that. He obviously doesn't like the weight room now.

Now if someone can prove to me the 17 reps was part of his injury and he's on record at school with a lot higher reps (28+), he's in the conversation, although I still don't think he's a fit as a 2-gap DE.

And please don't give me the long arm exuse. Derrick Harvey's arm's are 2" longer and he benched 31 times.

[dobre shunka]

He'd need more than 10#s IMO. Keisel came in around that. Six years later, he seams to have topped out at ~285#. And he still lacks the sand for the spot. I don't know if Merling could ever gain enough to two-gap in the NFL as a 34 DE. Aaron Smith got there, but it took him 3 years. Fine for a R4 pick. Not so much for R1.

[BLITZ 43]

TMC and deljzc great posts by both of you and I can see both points but I agree with TMC when it comes to Albert. I want nothing to do with this guy in the 1st round we can get by with what we have at guard. It comes down to the way each person feels and I feel we are a better team with either a wr, ot, dline or db as our 1st pick instead of Albert. I don't feel we are great at guard but I think/hope we can find a decent-good combo at guard between Mahan, Kemo, Colon, and Simmons. Maybe we get Rachael or Young in the 2nd round and I don't feel either of these guys are head and shoulds above the other and we can get just about the same talent in round 2 at guard. Are we ok at guard maybe but is it an area of need, IMO not as bad as ot, wr, dline and db. JMO

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

So then it does come down to BPA. I have no problem taking Albert with the first pick, depending on who is available. If we can upgrade the guard position with the acquisition of a stud OG, I'm all for it. We may be adequate there right now, but there's no reason not to try and improve.

[deljzc]

I still think Albert is a much better prospect than many here are giving him credit for. I understand the rise since January scares some, but it's not because of workouts or combine numbers or vertical jump. His rise is based entirely on film of his play at Virginia. Film doesn't lie.

He's still my #1 guy in this draft that I'm hoping will be on the board and I think there is very little bust factor to the pick at all, while I think there is major questionmarks with almost all the WR/CB group.

I guess that's just my opinion.

Like I said, as far as Cherilus vs. the field (and we'd really need to get more specific on who the field is), I'm picking Cherilus but I can understand other positions on the matter. Albert vs. the field is a no brainer to me and still don't see anyone even close to a better pick for us.

[Slaine]

I think that Albert scares me only because he is the top guard in a very weak class for interior linemen.

I'd love someone to break him down against other top guard prospects that have come out recently as I'm worried that we're trying to fill a hole with a guy that in any other year would probably have been a second round pick at best.

Ben Grubbs was the top guard last year (taken at #29) - I wonder how he and Albert compare?

For reference only one other guard went in the 2nd (Blalock) but two centres did go at the end of the round (Kalil and Satele).

[TMC]

I understand the rise since January scares some, but it's not because of workouts or combine numbers or vertical jump. His rise is based entirely on film of his play at Virginia. Film doesn't lie.


That is absolutely not true.

From Scout.com: "Branden Albert- Offensive Tackle, Virginia
Albert displayed some of the most flexible and fluid hips of any guard to show up at the combine in the last five years. He has the feet and athleticism to dominate at left guard in the NFL, and the more scouts watch tape on this guy, the higher his stock continues to rise." The 2nd guy listed on their Combine/Pro Day risers list.

"Branden Albert (Offensive Guard, Virginia) Posted a very respectable 5.22 forty time and showed good fluidity and feet throughout position drills. Has the ability to line up at tackle in the NFL, but it has been awhile since a guard has come along with his ability to pull and get out to the second level, a potential late first round pick."

Rich Gosselin: "This class of blockers starts with Jake Long but doesn't end there. Ryan Clady (Montana), Jeff Otah (Pitt), Gosder Cherilus (Boston College) and Brandon Albert (Virginia) all jumped out at Indianapolis. Teams will be drafting wide-bodied tackles with the potential to become starters through seven rounds."

Albert was on everyone's lips at the combine. Funny, when he declared, he was right in the mix with Rachal and Schuening as the #1 OG and now has seperated himself from them significantly......who did they play since January 15th, when he declared? What NEW film did they get?

He is a combine/workout RISER.

And, do you honestly question whether a hernia effects your ability to lift weights? If you ever get one, get back to me. When your groin and balls start hurting like a bitch every time you move, the last thing you want to do is lay on a bench and strain that area.

[TMC]

One more thing....the film on Merling shows he is a fucking beast. Not only does he keep his feet and brush off blocking linemen, when he hits, he hits with bad intentions.....they showed some QB sacks and it looked like Kendrell Bell/Trent Green II.

[BLITZ 43]

So then it does come down to BPA. I have no problem taking Albert with the first pick, depending on who is available. If we can upgrade the guard position with the acquisition of a stud OG, I'm all for it. We may be adequate there right now, but there's no reason not to try and improve.


Yes BPA at the need position and our need positions are ot, wr, dline, and db. I feel that we could get good talent later in the draft(Felton, Mcduffie, Tevaga, and Rinehart) day 2 to uprade guard. If we get an injury to A. Smith, Ward or Holmes, TP or Ike then what? Who do we have to step in and help we just went thru that last season with Simth, but we would have a good guard who we can replace due to injury if we go Albert in the 1st. I just think yeah we need to upgrade at og but not in the first round due to need of other positions and depth at guard already, JMO.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

From NFL draft Countdown

Phillip Merling
Height: 6-41/4 | Weight: 276 | 40-Time: 4.75

Official Bio

Strengths:
Terrific size and bulk with long arms...Great quickness...Has a non-stop motor...Is very strong and powerful...Plays with a nasty demeanor...Excellent range and he is relentless in pursuit...Natural pass rusher with a variety of moves...Can take on multiple blockers and shed the double team...Does a nice job versus the run...Has good instincts & awareness...Reliable tackler...Solid technician...Does a nice job in space...Extremely versatile...Can play a number of positions in different schemes.

Weaknesses:
May lack elite athleticism...Won't scare anyone off the edge...Does not have great timed speed and isn't real explosive...Might be a bit of a 'tweener...He can be too aggressive at times...Will get pushed back...Needs to work on his hand use...Has to work on keeping his shoulders square...Intelligence could be an issue with him.

Notes:
Uncle Chris Rumph was his position coach at Clemson...He prepped at Fork Union Military Academy...Has experience at both defensive end and defensive tackle...He can project to end or tackle in a 43 defense or end in a 34 scheme...Very different player from Gaines Adams but is a better all-around player...Not real flashy but is a very good prospect who will be in high demand...Awfully similar to Trevor Pryce.

[Slaine]

From NFL draft Countdown

Phillip Merling
Height: 6-41/4 | Weight: 276 | 40-Time: 4.75

Very different player from Gaines Adams but is a better all-around player...

Gotta like that.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

I think he would be a good option at 23.

[deljzc]

TMC... If you're trying to bait me with Merling vs. Cherilus or Merling vs. Albert, you know where I"m going with that.

Merling isn't a 3-4 end and if he couldn't life weights because of the pain, then you skip out all together, not put up a pitiful 17 reps for the world to see. Any good agent would tell him that. Again, even if he thew up 25-30 reps, I'd still have questions about the kid in our system. He's a solid player, but nothing to make me give up on a good/great offensive linemen. I think Dre Moore is a better fit at DE for us than Merling is, even though Merling's a better player and we can probably get Moore in round 2.

[TMC]

So, what you are stating is, the film on Merling does not matter, but the film on Albert does. Lets be really honest here, Albert was tossed in with the other guards until he ran well and performed well at the combine. Since then, he has exploded into the first round. You can babble on and on about tape, but it was the workouts that propelled him up draft boards...because the same tape was there on Albert in January when everyone called him a 2nd round pick. You have latched onto what guys have done in workouts, OR you would be more willing to accept what Merling has done, since his tape does not lie either.

The thing is, Albert only graded out at 83.54% in blocking consistency as a Senior. He was not even in the 90 percentile range. He had 2 penalties and allowed 5.5 sacks in 428 pass plays.

Now, no one is throwing Schuening or Sam Baker into the first round, even though Schuening played 4 games at RT this season, graded out at 82.38%, and allowed 5 sacks on 438 pass plays. Baker is a left tackle who graded out at 86.7% and only allowed 2 sacks in 460 pass plays. Yet, neither are sniffing the first because one touched the tape a little short and the other did not run as fast.

Bullshit. You pimp Albert because of his combine. His two starts at tackle were against Pitt and Middle Tennessee State....and they won in the closing seconds against MTSU on a FG. Barely. They just hung on. Name me the grand pass rusher on EITHER team that Albert shut down. I also wonder why you are not against Albert, since he only put up 23 reps on the bench, a mere 6 more than Merling, and he was not injured.

Merling, on the other hand, has been considered a top 10 pick by some and has NOT worked out. He is considered a better pro prospect than Gaines Adams, who went 6th overall last year. Some feel he has the frame to add weight and play DT. Lets also not forget that Gaines Adams did not bench AT ALL before the draft and Jarvis Moss threw the bar up 16 times. They seemed to find their way into the first round.

It happens every year. People get enamoured with what guys do in shorts and throw out the whole body of work that lead up to that point. Albert did not seperate himself from the other guards on the field....and that is the only place it really counts. His numbers are right in line with what is generally being considered a very late 1st to 2nd round selection. Merling was talked about with the upper end defensive ends and his failure to workout due to injury has him dropping. The fact that you state he cannot play end in a 3-4 is pretty laughable. He beat right tackles as a Sophomore and then beat left tackles as a Junior. He played in the same league as Albert and put up solid numbers.

Yet, he is not worthy because he pushed a bar up a few too many times....I guess the break point was 22 or so.....otherwise Albert would have fallen short as well. Laughable.

[SteelerFan448]

There is talk that Phillip Merling MAY slide to us, and IMO, he ranks right there in talent with the guys mentioned in the top 15. We were lucky when Miller fell (although I wanted someone else) and we could be lucky again.

The thing with Williams, he is a left tackle and a pure pass blocking left tackle can fit almost any scheme. He is also smart, so I have no issue with his ability to adapt. I like Cherilus, just not at #23. I would love him at #32 or so....but that drop would give us another pick, possibly a 3rd....which means you land a guy like Schuening.


I would be running to the podium if Williams or Merling dropped to us.

[deljzc]

TMC... You're taking this way too personal dude.

I do use lift numbers to evaluate 3-4 DE prospects. I think it's a very important indicator to whether they can survive as 2-gap defensive player. Lift numbers don't mean as much to me on the offensive line and Albert's 23 lifts is right with all the other prospects except Long and similar, historically to successful offensive linemen (i.e. no red flag).

I said I think Merling is a 1st round talent. I have him at #23 on my big board right now (without QB's). I think he'd be a great fit in Carolina or Jacksonville or the Eagles. Teams that like physical 4-3 ends.

Comparing Merling to Adams is apples to oranges. Adams was a premier speed rusher the type Tampa-2 defenses drool over. Merling is a kind of jack-of-all trades defensive end that will probably never get 10 sacks, but always be a solid starter. Whether you like it or not, the NFL's search for sacks will always value players like Adams way above players like Merling.

Not working out at all will ALWAYS effect draft prospects and Merling is no different. All I said was if he wasn't healthy enough to lift, he shouldn't lift.

As far as Merling's tape. It was steady. Never explosive, off-the-charts good. I've seen him as a middle first rounder since January and he's a tad below that to me now.

What's the big deal? You can't convince me Merling's a 3-4 DE. He'd need to gain 15 lbs. and become a whole lot stronger in my opinion. I think if we pick him, he's useless in 2008 completely while he has a full season of NFL weight training. And since 17 reps indicates to me he's not interested in the weight room, that's not a good sign either.

Again, no way to I select Merling over Cherilus or Albert. That's a no brainer to me.

[Slaine]

Sadly I can't see Merling getting past the Redskins or the Vikings. I'd be damn happy if he did though.

[TMC]

TMC... You're taking this way too personal dude.

I do use lift numbers to evaluate 3-4 DE prospects. I think it's a very important indicator to whether they can survive as 2-gap defensive player. Lift numbers don't mean as much to me on the offensive line and Albert's 23 lifts is right with all the other prospects except Long and similar, historically to successful offensive linemen (i.e. no red flag).

First, this is not personal at all. But, you set a double standard. Branden Albert saw a meteoric rise because of his workout numbers and everyone wants to exclude his bench, which was tied for the 10th WORST of all offensive linemen. The linemen reps look like this:
9-Demetrius Bell
19-Pedro Sosa
21-John Sullivan, Drew Radovich, King Dunlap, Christopher Williams
22-Jamey Richard, Robert Felton, William Robinson

Now, when you think that 30 other linemen benched BETTER than 24.......with 8 over 30 and 16 with 28 or more. And, strength does not matter for an interior lineman? Are you seriously trying to tell me that a guy that may have to face the Casey Hamptons, Richard Seymours, and Derrick Dockerys of the NFL does not need strength?

Seriously?

And, as far as your analysis of strength numbers for successful defensive ends in the 3-4......Aaron Smith came into the combine at 6051, 279. He ran a 5.06 forty and tossed the bar up an amazing 19 times. NINETEEN times. Marcus Spears threw it up 15 times. Jared Allen tossed it up an amazing 13 times. Marcus Stroud only threw it up 21 times.

Smith is a stud defensive end in the 3-4. Spears is a solid starter at the same position. Stroud is a fucking monster and could play in any scheme. Allen was one of the premier sack men that plays with his hand in the grass.

You do not have to possess raw brute strength to be a successful 2-gap player. There are plenty of guys that throw the bar up and surprise scouts every season.....only to get cut in camp.

You place WAY too much stock in workout numbers.

[dobre shunka]

The fact that you state he cannot play end in a 3-4 is pretty laughable. He beat right tackles as a Sophomore and then beat left tackles as a Junior. He played in the same league as Albert and put up solid numbers.



Laughable? Seriously? How does he translate to a 34 DE? Besides spending two or more years adding bulk. Do you really want to invest that much time waiting for a payoff that may never come? Maybe he could rotate in on passing downs in the mean time. But he's sink or swim. Literally. His one and only move is a swim move. What the hell good does that do a 34 team. He won't ever be able to use it unless in conjunction with an extra outside blitzer. For a 43 team, hell yeah he's value at that spot. But for a 34 team, I just don't see his value there. Seriously, I'd rather have Dykes in the 5th than Merling in the 1st. He's pretty much the same guy as Lawrence Jackson, and he can be had in the 2nd or 3rd and healthy.

There's a lot of things to like about Schuening. I like to see OL with lots of starts, and Schuening had 50 consecutive. Which goes to another thing I like. Durability. Plus he's very smart and a leader and a high try guy. So far so good. But as was painfully clear when he moved outboard, and his combine and senior bowl confirms, the guy has zero movement or agility skills. None. If he doesn't have to pull or get to the second level much, he'd make a fine phonebooth combatant. Kinda like Kemo, only smart. Ok. Worth a 3rd in my book.

I have a theory on guys like Albert. Don't know if it's true but it sounds good. With all the All-Star bowls and Elite Jr coming out parties, I think the 2nd and 3rd tier Jrs tend to get forgotten until the combine. Then when people finally get around to giving them a look, there stock gets adjusted. Tho I'm still not sold on Albert at 1.23, I do think he's got some good qualities. Being able to pull and trap are among them. And I do think he's more suited outside than inside. But I don't think he's a better prospect than any of the top 3 guards last year, even throwing in the OT factor.

[TMC]

dobre, Phillip Merling is almost the EXACT same size as Aaron Smith, who started in his 2nd season for the Steelers. There is a 1" and 3 pound difference between the two, and Smith was considered VERY raw, Merling is not as raw as Smith was. Keisel was also 279, but he only added 6 pounds in all his time, because he did not want to sacrifice speed.

There are some other notable ends in the 3-4 that are not 300 pounds. Shaun Ellis is only 285 and was 280 when he was drafted. Kenyon Coleman, also of the Jets, is only 285. Luis Castillo of the Chargers has actually cut weight from 305 to 290. Chris Canty of the Cowboys was 283 at 6'7". He started EVERY game as a rookie. Marquis Douglas is only 290 and plays DE.

Guys get drafted in the 270-280 pound range all the time and add size and bulk. Most men do not qui growing until they are 25.

So, he has size that is similar to guys that play the position now. He is also a run stopper first. His forte is not pass rushing, but run stopping. The thing that makes him so interesting is the fact that he does not have a major hole. Not only can he play the run, but he can provide a solid pass rush. And, while he does need to develop more pass rush moves, his only move is not the swim. He also shows an ability to use the push-pull, something that is pretty effective in our system. If he is able to place his hands on the pads of the blocker, he extends his arms to create separation and then snatches the blocker past him. He also shows an ability to extend one arm keeping the blocker off him and move down the line.

The fact that he can use that style of stiff arm should translate well into learning the club, because it gives you separation and the ability to snatch a guy towards you, throwing his balance while you use your free hand to roll him. I have had it done, and it fucking sucks.

Does he need work? Yep. But, outside of the top 6 guys in this draft.....they all have an area where they need work.

[leftcoaststeelerfan]

I don't think it matters. Although possible, I don't think Merling will be there for us to take him.

[TMC]

I have a theory on guys like Albert. Don't know if it's true but it sounds good. With all the All-Star bowls and Elit