Hall of Fame Class of 2009 - In or Out?

[LetMePlay]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - OUT
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - IN

[SteelerFan448]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - OUT
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - OUT

It seems like Rod has been retired for more than five years and it will be nice to see him get in. Dawson should not have to wait too much longer either.

[Balls&YourWord]

McDaniel has an outside chance, but I do think it is a legitimate chance he gets in next year. Bruce Smith, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Woodson, and Cris Carter should be shoe-ins though. And it'll be nice to see another member of the B&G be enshrined, as a kid he was my favorite player and he's a big reason why I became a Steelers fan in the first place.

[LetMePlay]

McDaniel should be a lock. 12 straight Pro Bowls and the All Decade Team for the 90s. One of the most dominant interior OL I have ever seen. From his bio:

"McDaniel allowed only 1.5 sacks all season while clearing run lanes for Minnesota running backs to average 5.4 yards per carry on his side of the line."

[warriors42]

woodson, and McDaniel should be locks, Smith, and Carter should also be in.. but then again I don't get a vote.

[mightyguru]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - OUT
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - IN

[crimsonsteel]

I wouldn't be surprised to either Carter or Reed and McDaniel OR both Carter and Reed out. People have forgotten how unstoppable perennial pro bowler Derrick Thomas was. Absolute tragedy he died so young.

[THE GREAT BURGHBOY]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - IN
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - OUT

I think Thomas gets in. Reed and McDaniel should get in, just not next year. The first 4 should be first ballot locks.

[Diamond Dave]

Will Rod Woodson go in as a Steeler or a Raven?

I wish someone here could tell me.

[CornerBlitz]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - IN
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - OUT

I think Thomas gets in. Reed and McDaniel should get in, just not next year. The first 4 should be first ballot locks.


Chris Carter was not elected last year in his 1st attempt at the HOF.

[Sabin]

Will Rod Woodson go in as a Steeler or a Raven?

I wish someone here could tell me.


49'er.

Duh.

[Achie D]

Will Rod Woodson go in as a Steeler or a Raven?

I wish someone here could tell me.

He has said as a Steeler.

[LetMePlay]

Derrick Thomas is a tough one. I put him on par with Jason Taylor (or slightly better) and not as good as Simeon Rice. He was more explosive than either but I dont think he was as complete of a player as either though. He is probably a HOF player and would have been a lock with 2 more years.

[Steelerman58]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - IN
Derrick Thomas - OUT
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - IN

I agree with this assessment, but I think it's a shame that Derrick Thomas will have to wait a while for HOF designation. Thomas was a great player who was in the middle of a great career when his life was tragically cut short.

[THE GREAT BURGHBOY]

Chris Carter was not elected last year in his 1st attempt at the HOF.

Oops. My bad. I figured 1000 receptions should be the same "automatic" as 300 wins and 3000 hits are in baseball.

[Parasite]

Derrick Thomas is a tough one. not as good as Simeon Rice..


Crack kills. Must be some really strong shit too.

[crimsonsteel]

Derrick Thomas is a tough one. I put him on par with Jason Taylor (or slightly better) and not as good as Simeon Rice. He was more explosive than either but I dont think he was as complete of a player as either though. He is probably a HOF player and would have been a lock with 2 more years.

Derrick Thomas - from wikipedia

NFL career

Thomas was selected in the first round of the 1989 NFL Draft, fourth overall, and was signed by the Chiefs. He would remain with the Chiefs for the entirety of his career.

Thomas's rookie year was very successful, earning him Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Sporting News, and was the first Chiefs' linebacker to be elected to the Pro Bowl in his first season since hall of fame player Bobby Bell. He would appear in nine during his career.

He was known as one of the best defensive players in NFL history, and one of the most highly visible Chiefs players throughout his career. Thomas was perhaps most well known for his ability to sack the quarterback and was named All-Pro 8 times and was voted to 9 Pro Bowls. He totaled 126.5 sacks in his career and still holds the single game record of 7 quarterback sacks, a feat which occurred against Seattle's Dave Krieg on Veterans Day 1990. (He had dedicated the game to his late father, and said he would've traded the sack record for a Chiefs victory.) He is one of only 22 NFL players to achieve 100 or more sacks, and ranks fifth all-time in Chiefs' history with 649 career tackles. During his career, he also recorded 1 interception and recovered 19 fumbles, returning them for 161 yards and 4 touchdowns. Thomas established Chiefs career records for sacks, safeties, fumble recoveries, and forced fumbles. His 45 forced fumbles are also an NFL career record. Off the field, Thomas established the Third and Long Foundation.



Jason Taylor is a 6 time pro bowler and 3 time All Pro.

Simeon Rice has made 3 pro bowls and has only been an all pro once.


Drugs are bad m'kay. :rolleyes:

[jasen@cardiostack]

i cant believe people dont remember how good derrick thomas was. he was the best outside lb of that time. and without question a h.o.f'er to compare him too taylor or rice is ludicrous.

[Stlrs4Life]

Bruce Smith - IN
Shannon Sharpe - IN
Rod Woodson - IN
Cris Carter - OUT
Derrick Thomas - IN
Andre Reed - OUT
Randall McDaniel - OUT

[LetMePlay]

Simeon Rice: 119 sacks from 1996 to 2005. 11.9 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 8
Seasons with >15 sacks: 3
He also dropped into coverage and had 5 INTs

Derrick Thomas: 126 sacks in 11 years. 11.5 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 7
Seasons with >15 sacks: 1
0 passes defended, 1 INTs

What's with all the Simeon Rice hate? He was a great player for 10-11 years. In that same span he was a more complete player than Derrick Thomas with nearly as many sacks. Thomas has one monster 20 sack season , with 7 or 8 in one game, early in his career but Rice was more consistent. Sure he sucked for his last 3 years but he was a good player. Where Thomas was more explosive was that he forced >40 fumbles in his career. Rice only had 28 FF. Again, Thomas was an exceptional player but I dont put him up there with Lawrence Taylor. I put him with Rice and Jason Taylor. Thats where I think he belongs.

I did not dig up Thomas stats from the post season but I remember him getting shut pretty much shut down against Miami, Denver, and Buffalo. I think they were all close games and they lost them all.

[cutty]

Will Rod Woodson go in as a Steeler or a Raven?

I wish someone here could tell me.

A true steeler, my brother and I talked a few minutes with him after SB-XL in Detroit, great guy.

[crimsonsteel]

Simeon Rice: 119 sacks from 1996 to 2005. 11.9 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 8
Seasons with >15 sacks: 3
He also dropped into coverage and had 5 INTs

Derrick Thomas: 126 sacks in 11 years. 11.5 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 7
Seasons with >15 sacks: 1
0 passes defended, 1 INTs

What's with all the Simeon Rice hate? He was a great player for 10-11 years. In that same span he was a more complete player than Derrick Thomas with nearly as many sacks. Thomas has one monster 20 sack season , with 7 or 8 in one game, early in his career but Rice was more consistent. Sure he sucked for his last 3 years but he was a good player. Where Thomas was more explosive was that he forced >40 fumbles in his career. Rice only had 28 FF. Again, Thomas was an exceptional player but I dont put him up there with Lawrence Taylor. I put him with Rice and Jason Taylor. Thats where I think he belongs.

I did not dig up Thomas stats from the post season but I remember him getting shut pretty much shut down against Miami, Denver, and Buffalo. I think they were all close games and they lost them all.

I didn't say I hated Simeon Rice. And I sure as hell didn't say anything about him being as good as Lawrence Taylor. There are other LB's in the HOF that aren't named Lawrence Taylor.

My point is Thomas is more or as deserving than two of the threesome of Reed, Carter, or McDaniel. He made as much or more of an impact on games as consistently as these guys did. No doubt. Consistency? He made All Pro 8 seasons and the Pro Bowl 9 times. You don't do that as a one trick pony.

[LetMePlay]

My point is Thomas is more or as deserving than two of the threesome of Reed, Carter, or McDaniel. He made as much or more of an impact on games as consistently as these guys did. No doubt. Consistency? He made All Pro 8 seasons and the Pro Bowl 9 times. You don't do that as a one trick pony.

I agree except with McDaniel. Did you know that McDaniel only allowed 21 sacks in 14 seasons? A bad player gives up >8 per season. An average player about 4-5. A good player about 3-4. A great player 2. McDaniel was at 1.5 over his career. In case why you are wondering why the math does not work out as most teams give up about 35-36 sacks a season: Thats for 4 down players in a 16 game season. Sacks given up by FBs, RBs, and TEs are excluded. Even if more sacks come from the edges the 1.5 sacks per season is really amazing.

I think that because he was a quiet guy and played in Minnesota for most of his career people forget how awesome he was. Based on the names already in the HOF, he may be the best interior lineman to play since 1980 and one of the best in the modern ear. Mathews played longer but I doubt he was better. Hannah was probably better but he is definitely up there with the rest like Larry Little. Of course the major caveat is that I never saw some of the pre-1970 players except on video.

HOF Guards from the modern era

Lou Creekmur (T-G) 1950-1959
Joe DeLamielleure (G) 1973-1985
Forrest Gregg (T-G) 1956, 1958-1971
John Hannah (G) 1973-1985
Stan Jones (T-G, also DT) 1954-1966
Larry Little (G) 1967-1980
Tom Mack (G) 1966-1978
Bruce Matthews (G,C,T) 1983-2001
Mike Munchak (G) 1982-1993
Jim Parker (G-T) 1957-1967
Billy Shaw (G) 1961-1969
Gene Upshaw (G) 1967-1981
Gene Hickerson (G) 1958-1973

[CornerBlitz]

Thier are 5 down linemen not 4.

[thatrain]

I believe "Down Lineman" generally refers to the defensive side of the ball, but I could be mistaken.

[GRBman]

I think Simeon Rice gets overlooked a little bit because the guy that played ILB with him in Tampa was a little overshadowing...

[LetMePlay]

4 down meaning plays all 4 downs.

[Parasite]

Simeon Rice: 119 sacks from 1996 to 2005. 11.9 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 8
Seasons with >15 sacks: 3
He also dropped into coverage and had 5 INTs

Derrick Thomas: 126 sacks in 11 years. 11.5 sacks per year.
Seasons with >10 sacks: 7
Seasons with >15 sacks: 1
0 passes defended, 1 INTs




Let's look at sacks and tackles for their complete careers shall we? Ok then.

Simeon Rice........12 years, 122 sacks, 392 tackles
Derrick Thomas.....11 years, 126.5 sacks, 601 tackles

From profootballreference.com

Now go ahead and tell me how Thomas wasn't the player Rice was.

edit: Thomas 41 forced fumbles and 3 safeties. Rice 28 forced fumbles and 1 safety. And Thomas was still going relatively strong when he died. Sure, his last year he had only 7 sacks but the year before he had 12. He would've surely topped 140 sacks for his career if he hadn't died.

[LetMePlay]

Let's look at sacks and tackles for their complete careers shall we? Ok then.

Simeon Rice........12 years, 122 sacks, 392 tackles
Derrick Thomas.....11 years, 126.5 sacks, 601 tackles

From profootballreference.com

Now go ahead and tell me how Thomas wasn't the player Rice was.

OK. 5 INTs -vs- 1 INTs. And more consistent. How many years were each over 10 sacks? Over 15 sacks?

Never said Thomas was bad but not as complete and consistent as Rice and not as good overall. Thomas did have a ton more tackles and forced fumbles.

[crimsonsteel]

Can't figure out how to copy and paste these stats without it being a jumbled mess. Here are the links to career stats for both Rice and Thomas.


Derrick Thomas -
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomDe01.htm



Simeon Rice -
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceSi00.htm


From the looks of it, Thomas started out of the gate with a bang and it took Simeon a few years to develop. As far as years with less than 10 sacks, Thomas had one more year than Rice, going on an 11 year career but he never had fewer than 7. Simeon had 5 or fewer twice in his first 11 years. In his 11 years Thomas had 4 less interceptions, but 13 more forced fumbles, 11 more fumble recoveries, 4 more TDs, 209 more tackles, and 2 more safeties than Rice had in his entire career. Rice is a great consistent player, but to say that Derrick Thomas is not a consistent player is absurd. Even the great ones have an off game sometimes.

As for the playoffs, the Chiefs lost those close games thanks to Martyball. You can't pin those losses on DT.

[Diamond Dave]

He has said as a Steeler.

A true steeler, my brother and I talked a few minutes with him after SB-XL in Detroit, great guy.

You must have shown up late to the party.

Players don't go in as a member of one team or another. All teams that the player played for are listed. Franco Harris is listed under Seahawks. Mike Webster is listed under Chiefs.

[sb26554]

Yeah, the knock on Thomas is that he was too one-dimensional. Of course, the counter to that is that he was outstanding at that one dimension. With Fred Dean (who was also one-dimensional and wasn't even an every-down player during his last few seasons) getting in, I don't see why DT wouldn't be voted in now. He'll probably make it in within the next couple of years. It will be interesting to see how many other similar players make it in (like Richard Dent, Chris Doleman and, of course, Kevin Greene).

Also, am I alone in thinking that they could wait a year or two to let Sharpe in? He should get in but I don't know that he's necessarily a slam dunk first-ballot guy. The fact that he's got three rings (which usually carries a lot of weight with the voters) and now has a high-profile media gig makes it more likely he'll make it on his first try but I think they could sit on his induction for a little while.

John Randle's also eligible for the first time next year. I think he should make it in someday(probably not in '09, though).

[crimsonsteel]

No, you're not alone. I think Sharpe is worthy but on the first try? No, it's not a slam dunk to me either.

[LetMePlay]

Rice is a great consistent player, but to say that Derrick Thomas is not a consistent player is absurd. Even the great ones have an off game sometimes.

As for the playoffs, the Chiefs lost those close games thanks to Martyball. You can't pin those losses on DT.

I dont think I said not consistent. I think I said more consistent. As I said Thomas will go in but I was looking at Thomas -vs- McDaniel on that list and then I left him out. McDaniel may have been the best interior lineman that I remember seeing play with my memory starting in the 70s.

I did not pin the losses on him just that he was he was shut down in games that mattered the most. Not all the time but more then he should have been. Just to contrast, Rice has 4 sacks in their 2 playoff games and SB in 2002. Even in playoff losses in 2001 and 2005 he had 3 sacks and played well. I think he has had a sack in just about every playoff game he has been in. I did not dig up passes defended stat but I bet he had some of those too because he dropped into coverage some.

[crimsonsteel]

Thomas had 7.5 sacks in 10 career playoff games. Not astounding but not too shabby either. As for the postseason stats debate, I think the stats are going to be a little lopsided in Rice's favor. Rice played on one of the top 2 defenses ( Steelers included ) of that era. It was littered with pro bowlers. While the KC defenses were good, I don't think they compared to the Bucs of that time. Good teams take away a teams' strength come playoff time. The Bucs were a more well rounded D than the Chiefs. I could be wrong but that's my theory. I agree about McDaniel however. Dude was a beast.

[Pilz]

They haven't really picked 2009 finalists yet, have they? Shouldn't Dermontti Dawson be on that list?

[sb26554]

They haven't really picked 2009 finalists yet, have they? Shouldn't Dermontti Dawson be on that list?

No, the voting process doesn't begin until the fall.