Time to clean house?

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

JJ_Steel said:
We could not compete for free agents or re-sign whatever player we wanted prior to Heinz Field being built.in 2001. We were not on a level playing field economically and this greatly hampered Cowher and the Steelers from 1998-2000 as the team got older. Trying to compare the down years of 98-00 with the clusterfuck we have now with a franchise QB in his prime and consistently losing to bad teams at home is just ridiculous.

And the decisions to resign vets from the SB runs proved to be a very high cost salary cap wise for this generation. It kept the team from signing needed FA depth. That along with picking in the high teens to high twenties every year and failing to get younger players the playing time needed to develop (defense) has hindered this group of Steelers. ****, why the hell is Shamarko not getting more defensive snaps right now when it's apparent that Troy has lost a step or two? Why is Big Dan not getting ANY playing time when it is apparent that Cam Thomas brings little to nothing to the defense? Tuitt dresses and gets what 4 snaps per game? And so on and so on ... WTF?

Vader · Sep 29, 2014

SteelBuckeye said:
Like anything, when we go to canonize a coach, we often forget the facts. The cupboard was not exactly bare when Cowher took over this team and he didn't have to do much "rebuilding". Players on the team his first year included:

1. Neil O'Donnell - not a "Franchise" QB, but a damned good one who took the team to a Super Bowl (whereupon he **** the bed and rode off into the NY skyline)
2.Barry Foster - Whose resume includes one of the greatest seasons ever produced by a Steelers RB
3. Yancey Thigpen - A talented but not ALL-PRO WR
4. Eric Green - Who is/was the blueprint for the oversized receiving TE of the modern era and who could have been one of the greats if he had learned to stay out of his own way.
5. Rod Woodson - 'nuff said
6. Hardy Nickerson - Prototypical Steelers LB who eventually left in free agency.
7. Greg Lloyd - 'nuff said
8. Carnell Lake - one of the most versatile safeties the Steelers have ever had. Was a LB in college and spent time at S and CB for the Steelers.
9. Darren Perry (rookie year/ but a starter)
10. Joel Steed
11. Levon Kirkland (rookie year/non starter)
12. Duval Love (F/A pick up)
13. Merril Hoge - Mr. Gritty. A Steeler FB through and through
14. Tunch
15. Leon Searcy (Rookie year/non starter)

The cupboard was far from bare when Cowher took over. And this myth that he had to "rebuild" the team is just that. He brought in 3 rookies that year that would join the core players already there to form the nucleus of the '95 SB team. Most of the rest was already in place. In fact, you could say that Cowher's first SB trip was made with Noll's players.
Again, this isn't said to back up Tomlin, but rather in response to the "Cowher had to build from the bottom" statements. Simply not true.

I'm sorry but that is just non sense. 6 of the players on offense and 9 on defense were from Cowher in 95. Tomlin has more Cowher players NOW on his team than Cowher had of Noll players just 5 years in. He had a lot leave via FA. Of course you are going to have similar players the FIRST year. It's ridiculous to judge them on ONE year. But Cowher has to replace every single one of those guys you posted in just a few years. Tomlin TO THIS DAY, 8 seasons into his coaching career, still has more good Cowher player than he has his own.

Steeltime · Sep 29, 2014

Additionally, in his first 2 drafts, Cowher and Co. brought in:

Leon Searcy, Levon Kirkland, Joel Steed, Darren Perry, Deoine Figures, Chad Brown, Kevin Henry, and Willie Williams.

Cowher basically made the defense in 2 drafts, with 5 very, very good starters and 3 serviceable secondary players.

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

Vader said:
I'm sorry but that is just non sense. 6 of the players on offense and 9 on defense were from Cowher in 95. Tomlin has more Cowher players NOW on his team than Cowher had of Noll players just 5 years in. He had a lot leave via FA. Of course you are going to have similar players the FIRST year. It's ridiculous to judge them on ONE year. But Cowher has to replace every single one of those guys you posted in just a few years. Tomlin TO THIS DAY, 8 seasons into his coaching career, still has more good Cowher player than he has his own.

To paraphrase, your contention earlier was that Cowher "HAD" to totally rebuild the roster when he took over. My contention was that the '92 roster that Cowher had does not support that a total rebuild was necessary. He inherited enough players to be successful immediately, and to his credit he was (11-5 record, first in the division). But, having players already on the roster like O'Donnell, Foster, Lloyd, Nickerson, WOODSON, etc. disputes the idea that a total rebuild was necessary for Cowher to be successful.

Players on both the '92 team (Cowher's first year) and the '95 team (SB appearance) include: O'Donnell, Thigpen, Lake, Lloyd, Dawson (who I forgot to list above - shoot me now!!), Olsavsky, Woodson (hurt most of the year) .. It is true that by that time Cowher had brought in more of his players as Noll's players got older, Cowher replaced them with his own. But, to deny that there was talent on the roster when he got here is just not looking at the facts. He went 11-5 in his first year with a pretty talented core group of "Noll's Players". And to deny that players like O'Donnell, Lake, Thigpen, Lloyd and Dawson comprised a good part of the core of that SB team ... well, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
As for Tomlin, I think you must have misread my post. Because I thought I stated that the post was not in defense of Tomlin, but rather in response to the continued canonization of Cowher.

Acereros · Sep 29, 2014

Bigappleyinzer said:
How did this fanbase become so spoiled:

1998 Pittsburgh Steelers: 7-9 No playoffs
1999 Pittsburgh Steelers: 6-10 No playoffs
2000 Pittsburgh Steelers: 9-7 No playoffs

Why are we pretending as if this franchise is immune to lulls? Why should we blow this team up this time around?

Steelers 1998 - 2000 with Kordell Stewart
Steelers 2012 - 2014 with Ben Roethlisberger

Apples and oranges anyone?????/

Steeltime · Sep 29, 2014

SteelBuckeye said:
To paraphrase, your contention earlier was that Cowher "HAD" to totally rebuild the roster when he took over. My contention was that the '92 roster that Cowher had does not support that a total rebuild was necessary. He inherited enough players to be successful immediately ... having players already on the roster like O'Donnell, Foster, Lloyd, Nickerson, WOODSON, etc. disputes the idea that a total rebuild was necessary for Cowher to be successful.

Pittsburgh Steelers, 1987-1991: 38-47 with 1 playoff appearance in 5 seasons
Pittsburgh Steelers, 1992-1996: 53-27 with 5 playoff appearances in 5 seasons

I point this out to underscore how much the team improved under Cowher. Answer: a lot.

Vader · Sep 29, 2014

SteelBuckeye said:
To paraphrase, your contention earlier was that Cowher "HAD" to totally rebuild the roster when he took over. My contention was that the '92 roster that Cowher had does not support that a total rebuild was necessary. He inherited enough players to be successful immediately, and to his credit he was (11-5 record, first in the division). But, having players already on the roster like O'Donnell, Foster, Lloyd, Nickerson, WOODSON, etc. disputes the idea that a total rebuild was necessary for Cowher to be successful.

Players on both the '92 team (Cowher's first year) and the '95 team (SB appearance) include: O'Donnell, Thigpen, Lake, Lloyd, Dawson (who I forgot to list above - shoot me now!!), Olsavsky, Woodson (hurt most of the year) .. It is true that by that time Cowher had brought in more of his players as Noll's players got older, Cowher replaced them with his own. But, to deny that there was talent on the roster when he got here is just not looking at the facts. He went 11-5 in his first year with a pretty talented core group of "Noll's Players". And to deny that players like O'Donnell, Lake, Thigpen, Lloyd and Dawson comprised a good part of the core of that SB team ... well, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
As for Tomlin, I think you must have misread my post. Because I thought I stated that the post was not in defense of Tomlin, but rather in response to the continued canonization of Cowher.

But you are totally missing the point. I never said Cowher had no talent. I said he had to totally rebuild the team and he did. Nobody can do it in one year. IF a coach came in today he would need to totally rebuild this team. He doesn't need to replace every single player. But he needs to replace the entire secondary, at least 2 LBs, and 2 DL. And that's just the defense. He can't do it over night.

So if you use your logic that keeping players doesn't mean a total rebuild then a total rebuild never happens in the NFL. My point was that Cowher replaced Noll's players very quickly. Almost every single Noll player is gone by year 4. Hell he is even having to replace his players because of FA and the inability of the Rooney's to pay them. Tomlin had NONE of these issues.

MT~Forged · Sep 29, 2014

I Keep hearing people say that it is time to move Butler into the DC position and let DL ride off into the sunset. What does Butler bring to this D that DL isn't already doing?

I think that we need to get a completely new DC that can run the almost never used 4-4-4 defenses. The 3-4 has run it's course, and with so many other teams running it there are not enough quality players for everyone.

steelcan58 · Sep 29, 2014

MT~Forged said:
I Keep hearing people say that it is time to move Butler into the DC position and let DL ride off into the sunset. What does Butler bring to this D that DL isn't already doing?

I think that we need to get a completely new DC that can run the almost never used 4-4-4 defenses. The 3-4 has run it's course, and with so many other teams running it there are not enough quality players for everyone.

I said it was time a few years ago when Hampton was getting long in tooth. It's definitely a lot tougher to get a NT. Without a great NT the 3 - 4 is screwed as we are finding out right now.

steelcan58 · Sep 29, 2014

MT~Forged said:
I Keep hearing people say that it is time to move Butler into the DC position and let DL ride off into the sunset. What does Butler bring to this D that DL isn't already doing?

I think that we need to get a completely new DC that can run the almost never used 4-4-4 defenses. The 3-4 has run it's course, and with so many other teams running it there are not enough quality players for everyone.

I said it was time a few years ago when Hampton was getting long in tooth. It's definitely a lot tougher to get a NT. Without a great NT the 3 - 4 is screwed as we are finding out right now.

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

Vader, I think we're close to the same point, but looking at it from different angles

Steeltime above makes a good point in that Cowher turned around the team pretty quickly. I'm just saying the talent was there for him to do it.
As far as Cowher bringing in his own type of players either through the draft or free agency, he did that rather quickly and they comprised part of the core of the '95 SB team also. I'm not denying that. Just stating that some of those core players were already on the roster when he arrived.

Now, if I were to make a comparison to Tomlin, it would be this. Cowher brought in his players to play the defensive scheme that he was comfortable with. It was a great decision and it paid off.
Tomlin has brought in his type of player and tried to fit them into a scheme that is not the one he learned/grew comfortable with as an assistant/DC. It has not worked well. I don't think anyone here would've been too pissed off if he had just drafted 4-3 players and ran a 4-3 scheme as long as the unit was good and productive. This mish mash of players and scheme is .... not good.

Acereros · Sep 29, 2014

Tibs said:
Don't kid yourself, Tomlin would get scooped up in a hurry. Look around the league, at all the coaching changes each year, Tomlin would be at the top of the list for many teams. Regardless of what our fan base thinks of him.

Ooohhh man, I was just waiting for this.

I remember pretty well when the debate about Kordell Stewart was going on. His apologists used to say exactly what you've just stated here, an how did that play out?

Brian M · Sep 29, 2014

Tomlin isn't going anywhere. He's under contract through the 2016 season and they're not going to pay him to go away.

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

Acereros said:
Ooohhh man, I was just waiting for this.

I remember pretty well when the debate about Kordell Stewart was going on. His apologists used to say exactly what you've just stated here, an how did that play out?

There's absolutely no way that you're serious. None at all ...

JJ_Steel · Sep 29, 2014

Brian M said:
Tomlin isn't going anywhere. He's under contract through the 2016 season and they're not going to pay him to go away.

Tomlin gets another head coaching job the money the Rooneys owe him is offset by his new contract

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

JJ_Steel said:
Tomlin gets another head coaching job the money the Rooneys owe him is offset by his new contract

If he decides to sit back for a year or two, the money the Rooneys owe him is not.

Drink IRON City · Sep 29, 2014

JJ_Steel said:
Tomlin gets another head coaching job the money the Rooneys owe him is offset by his new contract

SteelBuckeye said:
If he decides to sit back for a year or two, the money the Rooneys owe him is not.

Best of both worlds !!!!!!

Salute the nation

SteelBuckeye · Sep 29, 2014

Drink IRON City said:
Best of both worlds !!!!!!

Salute the nation

Good one ...

JJ_Steel · Sep 29, 2014

He's been taking the Rooneys money for years while doing nothing already.

Vader · Sep 29, 2014

SteelBuckeye said:
Vader, I think we're close to the same point, but looking at it from different angles

Steeltime above makes a good point in that Cowher turned around the team pretty quickly. I'm just saying the talent was there for him to do it.
As far as Cowher bringing in his own type of players either through the draft or free agency, he did that rather quickly and they comprised part of the core of the '95 SB team also. I'm not denying that. Just stating that some of those core players were already on the roster when he arrived.

Now, if I were to make a comparison to Tomlin, it would be this. Cowher brought in his players to play the defensive scheme that he was comfortable with. It was a great decision and it paid off.
Tomlin has brought in his type of player and tried to fit them into a scheme that is not the one he learned/grew comfortable with as an assistant/DC. It has not worked well. I don't think anyone here would've been too pissed off if he had just drafted 4-3 players and ran a 4-3 scheme as long as the unit was good and productive. This mish mash of players and scheme is .... not good.

I totally agree with that. I haven't had any problem changing schemes. But Tomlin rightly decided to wait and he won a SB and made it to another with that scheme. Cowher did the same thing. The 3-4 was already here when Cowher took over. So he just drafted more 3-4 talent. Tomlin made a huge mistake in tinkering with it by drafting players for a 4-3 while still running the 3-4. IF Tomlin wants to change to the Tampa 2 4-3 defense then go for it. But the very worst thing you can do is draft 4-3 players and try to fit them into a 3-4.

The difference between the core that Cowher and the one Tomlin had is that Cowher's core group had never won anything. O'Donnell was a 2nd year player who had a 2-6 record when Cowher took over. Even the "great" players that were here weren't great under Noll. Foster didn't even sniff a pro-bowl under Noll. He only started 10 games in 2 years with Noll and had less than 700 yards and 2 TDs in 2 years. People are nostalgic about certain players back then as well. Haselrig is a great player in Steeler circles. But in reality he made one pro-bowl (with Cowher) and was only with the Steelers 4 years (2 with Cowher). Does anyone know that Dawson NEVER made a pro-bowl under Noll. He made 7 with Cowher and made all-pro 6 times. John Jackson was a decent player but he never was a pro-bowler. Merrill Hoge was a good player but nothing special. His best year he had 200 yards rushing and 342 rec. Ilkin was an old man by the time Cowher came around. He played one year with Cowher then went to GB. He was never a pro-bowler. Lake never made a pro-bowl with Noll and made 4 with Cowher.

My point is there is a lot of nostalgia in looking at that core group.

xjx · Sep 29, 2014

If tomlin got scooped up after being released from here...good for him. Let him run his 8-8 scheme there. Its a tired and worn out scheme here.

slashsteel · Sep 29, 2014

Yes it is time to clean house

Not on what we just seen so far
but two years off mediocre to add to this year of mediocre, and I have no need to wait until seasons end.

I know just how it will play out, the bum will do just enough to not get fired.....

Stryker · Sep 29, 2014

It's a little tougher to play a clean game with 3 new defensive starters. I will wait till next week to start jerking knees.

Vader · Sep 29, 2014

Cope said:
It's a little tougher to play a clean game with 3 new defensive starters. I will wait till next week to start jerking knees.

Tampa Bay lost their starting QB, top 3 safeties, their starting DL, and pulled one of their WR's off the streets right before the game. They were also playing on the road in a stadium they had never won in without even having their OC. They had to use their QBs coach to call the plays.

thesteelcity · Sep 29, 2014

Vader said:
Tampa Bay lost their starting QB, top 3 safeties, their starting DL, and pulled one of their WR's off the streets right before the game. They were also playing on the road in a stadium they had never won in without even having their OC. They had to use their QBs coach to call the plays.

thank you for magnifying the loss for me. Can I have another kick in the balls for $1000, Alex?

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