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Anthony Chickillo retired from football.

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
That dude was the stiffest looking linebacker ever… I cannot believe that multiple scouts graded him as high as they did

he was a bust out of the box

Scouts should’ve lost jobs over drooling over Alonzo Jackson

Actually it was Cowher who was very high on Jackson. It was his call to grab him in the 2nd. He was rated lower on most other teams board. Probably one of the worst picks of the Chin era.
 

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Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
Actually it was Cowher who was very high on Jackson. It was his call to grab him in the 2nd. He was rated lower on most other teams board. Probably one of the worst picks of the chin era.
Ike
I would agree on this but out of curiosity who would you think was Tomlin's worst pick ? Jarvis comes to mind but there are others....................
I haven't given it much thought.


PLEASE others chime in as well.!

Salute the nation
 

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madinsomniac

Well-known member
Ike
I would agree on this but out of curiosity who would you think was Tomlin's worst pick ? Jarvis comes to mind but there are others....................
I haven't given it much thought.


PLEASE others chime in as well.!

Salute the nation
The entire 2008 draft was pretty bad as a whole… i think Jarvis is the worse wasted capital of the tomlin era… Jermaine Stevenson was the worse of the cowher era, followed by Troy edwards… but he had some garbage high picks like AJ and Will Blackwell… and anthony smith, who was like the limas sweed of the safety position, all the physical gifts and no mental ability at all
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
The entire 2008 draft was pretty bad as a whole… i think Jarvis is the worse wasted capital of the tomlin era… Jermaine Stevenson was the worse of the cowher era, followed by Troy edwards… but he had some garbage high picks like AJ and Will Blackwell… and anthony smith, who was like the limas sweed of the safety position, all the physical gifts and no mental ability at all


I remeber Anthny Smith because at the time I was really thinking we might have gotten something there. Boy was I wrong and it didn't take long to find out. Troy Edwards didn't live up to his billing but he did have some clutch catches and contributed slightly.

I agree that Jermain Stevens was bottom teir as well as Alonzo.

Jarvis Jones bottom teir definately who would be close second......... Dri Archer ?





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Litos

Well-known member
I remeber Anthny Smith because at the time I was really thinking we might have gotten something there. Boy was I wrong and it didn't take long to find out. Troy Edwards didn't live up to his billing but he did have some clutch catches and contributed slightly.

I agree that Jermain Stevens was bottom teir as well as Alonzo.

Jarvis Jones bottom teir definately who would be close second......... Dri Archer ?





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Golsen as a 2nd rounder, though injury caused
 

madinsomniac

Well-known member
I remeber Anthny Smith because at the time I was really thinking we might have gotten something there. Boy was I wrong and it didn't take long to find out. Troy Edwards didn't live up to his billing but he did have some clutch catches and contributed slightly.

I agree that Jermain Stevens was bottom teir as well as Alonzo.

Jarvis Jones bottom teir definately who would be close second......... Dri Archer ?





Salute the nation
Are we allowed to mention Archer yet? Doesn’t saying his name three times create a portal to hell on this board?
 

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madinsomniac

Well-known member
Edwards and Jarvis were both the worst kind of first rounders.. they were moderately high picks and they were slightly subpar players thus ensuring that they would get starter snaps and a roster spot for years hoping they would take the next step and thus burying better talent or opportunities to bring in someone else…..

its one of the reasons that first round runningbacks are so dangerous… even if they are average or subpar, its hard to be bad enough to not get several years of starting out of them… like Mendenhall… he wasn’t a good back but he ended up with a bit of production just out of his opportunities

some of those bad picks were reaches… Edwards for sure, Burns, maybe edmunds… some were injury like simmons, figures, goulson, hood and holmes were just a bad fits…they had some ability for sure.. i think Jermaine was more politics between cowher and donahoe… looking back i think Alonzo was the one guy you knew was a bad pick the moment it happened… and Jarvis wasn’t far behind
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
Edwards and Jarvis were both the worst kind of first rounders.. they were moderately high picks and they were slightly subpar players thus ensuring that they would get starter snaps and a roster spot for years hoping they would take the next step and thus burying better talent or opportunities to bring in someone else…..
And Tombert is real good at trotting subpar players out there for several seasons hoping a switch goes off so it doesn't look like they made a bad pick when in reality all it does is cement peoples' opinions that it was a bad pick.
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
And Tombert is real good at trotting subpar players out there for several seasons hoping a switch goes off so it doesn't look like they made a bad pick when in reality all it does is cement peoples' opinions that it was a bad pick.


ALSO trotting those out held some much better players back........ you know............. to learn the system

I know its a fine line and sometimes it's obvious to move on but then a slow starter like Bud Dupree comes along..........

Salute the nation
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Ike
I would agree on this but out of curiosity who would you think was Tomlin's worst pick ? Jarvis comes to mind but there are others....................
I haven't given it much thought.


PLEASE others chime in as well.!

Salute the nation
Well Drink there were two phases as some have pointed out. Under Donohoe and after Donohoe. Cowher during his first several years didn’t have final say, but for 1st round Jamain Stephens is the top blown pick during the Donohoe era. Troy Edwards second, but he did play out his rookie contract, so it’s not like he was a failure. Deon Figures can be slotted there but he was sidelined for a while because of the drive by shooting so not so much as a blown pick. After Donohoe, 1st Rounders we’re pretty solid al around. I don’t get the hate on Kendall Simmons, he started 74 of 78 games, until he left due health issues (Diabetes). Solid right guard for 5 years.

Now Cowhers pure bombs were primarily in the 2nd round, which he had more input during Donohoe‘s stint (Cowher was heavy into the 2-3 rounds and then the Coords pitched their guys 4-7). The plethora of 2nd rounders…..Conley, Staat, and who can forget Shields. Post Donohoe, Ricardo Colclough has to be the biggest 2nd rd bomb, Zo Jackson is next. Anthony Smith had promise, then got a big head. 3rd rounders is where developmental starters should be. Willie Reid wasn’t one. A ton of tackle picks were wasted, three years straight. Wiggins, Conrad and Kris Farris all wasted capital. I don’t think between the three of them they played 16 games in their career.

Cowher and Colbert really had a great working relationship and Kevin has continued that with Tomlin. Colbert has been a underrated GM IMO.
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
Oh the Scott Sheilds, I'd ate a crow sandwich on that one. I fully agree on Colbert being underrated. If not for Colbert, Tomlin would be in big trouble.

Ike, if you have time could you surmise Tomlin era.


Thanks for the great post(s).




Salute the nation
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Oh the Scott Sheilds, I'd ate a crow sandwich on that one. I fully agree on Colbert being underrated. If not for Colbert, Tomlin would be in big trouble.

Ike, if you have time could you surmise Tomlin era.


Thanks for the great post(s).




Salute the nation

Oh I’ll be crucified by those who want Tomlin gone probably, but the Rooney‘s (since Dan) are the smartest organization in the football business. No one can deny it, and no, Kraft/Belichick aren’t even close. In fact, if anything the New England franchise has put a stain on Goodell’s shield for League integrity that rivals what the MLBPA did for the MLB lockout in the mid 1990’s. It still hasn't recovered.

Tomlin has carried on the franchise’s success since free agency was introduced. I’m perfectly fine with him as the HC at this time. I absolutely loved Bill Cowher and his coaching style. It was change from the later Chuck Noll years than the first 12-14 years, whom I revered alongside Lombardi and Shula as for coaching greatness. For comparison purposes Tomlin and Chin’s statistics are very close. Actually Tomlin’s W/L average is better than Cowher and has coached one year less. No losing seasons mantra is constantly harped about, but it’s fact. Cowher has had 3 losing seasons. In fact I remember the board wanting him gone after the 99 season with back to back losing seasons. Some folks were having conniptions when Mr. Rooney kept him after that season. Yeah, Tomlin hasn‘t won a playoff game since 2016, but had Cowher not won SBXL he would have had a lot similar playoff record than Tomlin. The end product has been the same 2 SB appearances, one championship. Chin has a COTY award (rookie season?) but that’s a popularity award not production.

This whole argument regarding Ben and Tomlin riding his coat tails, along with Cowher’s players is IMO ridiculous. Sure if Tomlin was a 2-3 year coach I’d buy that argument (a’la Barry Switzer), but Tomlin has won a lot of games with turnover at all positions for over a decade, except Ben. Cowher had chances to get franchise QBs, but didn’t because his strategy didn’t rely on a franchise QB, only a tremendous defense and brutal running game. He wanted a game manager at QB and had a good one with O’Donnell. Had he stayed in PIT who knows what happens. Tomlin shouldn’t be considered less for his achievements because he had a QB. What was he supposed to do trade him? Even with Kordell, Chin didn’t really know how to use him, because Stewart’s abilities were about a decade ahead of his time. So Cowher’s scheme always followed Defense first, ball control offense second, which is what he learned from Marty Schottenheimer. Even WHEN they drafted Ben, they didn’t expect a franchise type QB to fall into their lap, and game planned for Defense and Bettis. Ben just happened to be the X factor teams couldn’t prepare for. So, if it wasn’t for Mr Rooney, Maddox or Batch would have been the starter going forward and possibly having Cowher retiring even earlier.

One more thing regarding arguments…..Challenges. It’s been pretty well documented that the Challenge rule is a facade and is more subjective than the actual call made on the field. Hell, I saw a report about challenge reviews being 50/50% on corrections. That basically makes the challenge useless. It shouldn’t be even a measurement of coaching because even now, there are reviews not called by coaches that are being called wrong. It SHOULD be better this year, but I still don’t think it will be even 80% correct.

Woud’ve/should’ve/could’ve moment to mention. The 2017 season. The loss to NE that should have been a win (Jesse James catch), but ended up putting PIT as the second seed. Had they won they would gone on to be the 1st seed, and JAX would have played NE. PIT would have the game against TEN (for which PIT had already blown out in a regular season game). No telling what would have happened if Al Riveron or even Goodell been held accountable. One, two playoff wins or maybe another Championship? Then what would the opinion be?

In any case, to compare Tomlin to any other coach I would say Andy Reid is the closest. Been coaching longer, but their stats are comparable except in playoff games. Until the last three years in KC Andy has a 11-13 W/L record. In fact at one time between PHI and KC Andy didn't win a playoff game 8 out of nine years (including 6 straight). That would never happen, even with the Rooney’s way of stability at coaching.

In summation, Tomlin is an exemplary HC, if he was fired right now he would have a job offer seconds after it hit the wire. I’m sure Art2 has had discussions about this needs to be a year any playoff run leads to a championship game, because of Ben age. I’m behind him as I was with Cowher. The players know to buy into the team philosophy, and Tomlin gives his veterans the ability to lead in the locker room while Tomlin keeps the distractions on him. Something every player wants…no distractions from the media.

We are a spoiled fan base, and demand excellence regardless of any circumstance. I’ll admit it too. However, there is no other coach out there that would replace Tomlin’s success right now. If he retired or couldn’t coach any longer the closest coach I am aware of now who I’d want to replace him would be either Vrabel or maybe Rivera, who was a finalist to begin with after Cowher.

Folks are going to sound off and go all Coach on this post. That’s fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. In mine, I feel we have a better chance to win a championship now with Tomlin, than without. Same with having Ben or without. Basically, we are back to after Cowher’s 2004 season on QBs. One thing for sure it will be an interesting 2022 off season.
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
GREAT Post Ike and I thank you SIR.

A lot of strong points made and I agree with many. I think what happens, least ways with me, is that many here get frustrated with Tomlin and his football Xs & Os type stuff. Slow adjustments if any in game.. Targeting teams strengths instead of their weaknesses, sure loss to subpar teams, and things of that nature.

Tomlin does have some strengths as well, creating extra scoring opportunuties going into the 1/2 or end of game, I'd rank him extremely high in this regards. Player communications skills the majority of the time, cross training to a degree on position flex, coach speak (one of the most frustrating characteristics of his but he it top dog at it), amongst other things.

Could we do worse with a different coach, I'd honestly say yes but we could also have a chance to do better. You're right Ike on keeping the pairing together, BEN & MIKE because it is the best chance of making something happen with the limited time left. 22 off season is going to be fun because I think Colbert will be gone and pending on how this season finishes,...... BEN could be gone as well.


Thanks again Ike for the great write up.!




Salute the nation
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
This whole argument regarding Ben and Tomlin riding his coat tails, along with Cowher’s players is IMO ridiculous. Sure if Tomlin was a 2-3 year coach I’d buy that argument (a’la Barry Switzer), but Tomlin has won a lot of games with turnover at all positions for over a decade, except Ben.
I hear what you're saying but the simple fact is that HCMCS hasn't won jack shit in the playoffs since Cowher's players and coaches retired or moved on.
I used to give HCMCS the benefit of the doubt but not any more. Until he proves otherwise I will be one of those saying he won everything he won with Cowher's players.
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
The entire 2008 draft was pretty bad as a whole… i think Jarvis is the worse wasted capital of the tomlin era… Jermaine Stevenson was the worse of the cowher era, followed by Troy edwards… but he had some garbage high picks like AJ and Will Blackwell… and anthony smith, who was like the limas sweed of the safety position, all the physical gifts and no mental ability at all
Actually the 2008 and 2009 drafts were both bad. I studied it once and after about four years no one from those drafts was still on the team and the last one to go was Ryan Mundy. So in other words the best player from two consecutive years' drafts was Pittsburgh native Ryan Mundy taken in the 6th round.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
GREAT Post Ike and I thank you SIR.

A lot of strong points made and I agree with many. I think what happens, least ways with me, is that many here get frustrated with Tomlin and his football Xs & Os type stuff. Slow adjustments if any in game.. Targeting teams strengths instead of their weaknesses, sure loss to subpar teams, and things of that nature.

Tomlin does have some strengths as well, creating extra scoring opportunuties going into the 1/2 or end of game, I'd rank him extremely high in this regards. Player communications skills the majority of the time, cross training to a degree on position flex, coach speak (one of the most frustrating characteristics of his but he it top dog at it), amongst other things.

Could we do worse with a different coach, I'd honestly say yes but we could also have a chance to do better. You're right Ike on keeping the pairing together, BEN & MIKE because it is the best chance of making something happen with the limited time left. 22 off season is going to be fun because I think Colbert will be gone and pending on how this season finishes,...... BEN could be gone as well.


Thanks again Ike for the great write up.!




Salute the nation

The X’s & O’s discussion is hard to facilitate because it’s all based on a person‘s opinion. Why is it no one talks about Chin’s Xs and Os? He was a young up and coming defense coord that Mr. Rooney tapped to replace Noll. He surrounded himself with established and young Asst coaches to success. His defenses were great, but Blitzburgh was built by Cowher, Dom Capers, Marvin Lewis and the father of the zone blitz. LeBeau. Chin on offense had Ron Erhardt handle what he wanted to implement, Ball control Power Rushing. He didn’t call plays, but only overruled them. Chan Gailey, Mularkey and Whiz all followed under the same philosophy until, the year Zereoue and Maddox started (2002) with the Tommy Gun offense. Cowher switched backed to Bettis the halfway through the next year because of a lack of a running game. That resulted in Chin’s 3rd losing season. Fortunately, because of that we drafted Ben, Maddox got hurt and the offense had the perfect chemistry with Bettis and Ben’s play complementing off each other.

Tomlin, process with Xs & Os was/has been the same. Young up coming D Coord selected by Mr. Rooney. The only difference was he had a HOF player/D Coord already on his staff. A defense built for the scheme at hand. What new coach in their right mind would change that? On offense, had Cowher not retired, Whiz was gone already, he had built up his resume enough he was being looked at head coaching jobs any way. BA would have slid into his role as OC under Cowher as well. Again, what new coach wouldn’t do the same at that time?

Yeah, I groan at some of the bad calls Tomlin has gone with. But it wasn’t any different than with some of the boneheaded calls Chin went with either. I’m willing go out on a limb that most, if not all, fans of other teams do exactly the same thing no matter who their coach is. It’s why we watch the games, complain when we lose and for the most part celebrate when we win. Even when we win, there are some folks who gripe still.

I agree with you Drink unanimously that how Tomlin navigates the post Ben and Colbert era will be interesting to see. Pretty much the same way that Noll did after Brad, Miami after Marino, and yes Belichick after Marcia.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
I hear what you're saying but the simple fact is that HCMCS hasn't won jack shit in the playoffs since Cowher's players and coaches retired or moved on.
I used to give HCMCS the benefit of the doubt but not any more. Until he proves otherwise I will be one of those saying he won everything he won with Cowher's players.

Ron, it can be viewed that way, but what did Cowher do after Noll’s players left? After 95, even when there were still a couple starters, Cowher didn’t win but 5 playoff games for 9 straight years (until Ben), all the while having 3 losing seasons withOUT any of Noll’s players. So without Mr. Rooney stepping in and opening Chin’s eyes for the big picture and draft a franchise QB, bingo Tomlin would be just as clever as Cowher. Proving anything is just semantics. Getting to the end goal is what matters. Fact is, both have the same record in championship games. Tomlin has a chance to make it better or worse. In any case, would that make the argument regarding players any different? Not IMO.
 

slashsteel

Well-known member
Ron, it can be viewed that way, but what did Cowher do after Noll’s players left? After 95, even when there were still a couple starters, Cowher didn’t win but 5 playoff games for 9 straight years (until Ben), all the while having 3 losing seasons withOUT any of Noll’s players. So without Mr. Rooney stepping in and opening Chin’s eyes for the big picture and draft a franchise QB, bingo Tomlin would be just as clever as Cowher. Proving anything is just semantics. Getting to the end goal is what matters. Fact is, both have the same record in championship games. Tomlin has a chance to make it better or worse. In any case, would that make the argument regarding players any different? Not IMO.
Only difference is Tomlin has had the luxury of Ben where Bill had him on the tail end. For me that playoff record with that factored in is substandard.
 

matarndt

New member
For comparison purposes Tomlin and Chin’s statistics are very close.
One had Ben for three years, the other nearly 5 times that long.
Tomlin shouldn’t be considered less for his achievements because he had a QB.
Yes, he should. Many of his decisions have been so bad that having a franchise QB wasn't enough to overcome them.
Until the last three years in KC Andy has a 11-13 W/L record. In fact at one time between PHI and KC Andy didn't win a playoff game 8 out of nine years (including 6 straight).
What changed for Reid in the last three years? He got a franchise QB who can perform in the clutch.

Tomlin has had that for his entire head coaching career (minus 2019 when Ben was injured, of course).

I agree with most of your points, but do you believe that If Cowher had Ben his entire head coaching career, he would still only have one SB win?
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
Ron, it can be viewed that way, but what did Cowher do after Noll’s players left? After 95, even when there were still a couple starters, Cowher didn’t win but 5 playoff games for 9 straight years (until Ben), all the while having 3 losing seasons withOUT any of Noll’s players. So without Mr. Rooney stepping in and opening Chin’s eyes for the big picture and draft a franchise QB, bingo Tomlin would be just as clever as Cowher. Proving anything is just semantics. Getting to the end goal is what matters. Fact is, both have the same record in championship games. Tomlin has a chance to make it better or worse. In any case, would that make the argument regarding players any different? Not IMO.
Cowher was in the Super Bowl after I think his third season although with a much different team than he inherited. HCMCS 2008 team was substantially the same as Chin’s 2005 team, I think almost all the coaching staff was the same. I strongly believe that Chin was robbed of one and maybe two Super Bowls by the Pats****** cheating. It is infuriating that we all know what they did and both he and HCMCS refuse to acknowledge it. I’ll allow that’s a sword that cuts both ways since neither Chin or Shades had to face the Cheating Bastiges in any of their Super Bowl seasons and lost every time they faced them in the playoffs.
 
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