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Anthony Chickillo retired from football.

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Only difference is Tomlin has had the luxury of Ben where Bill had him on the tail end. For me that playoff record with that factored in is substandard.
Gotta agree to disagree Slash, Cowher had plenty of chances to pick up a franchise QB, but didn’t because it wasn’t his MO. Tomlin’s ”luxury”? What was he supposed to do, cut Ben and get another QB?
 

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Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
One had Ben for three years, the other nearly 5 times that long.

Yes, he should. Many of his decisions have been so bad that having a franchise QB wasn't enough to overcome them.

What changed for Reid in the last three years? He got a franchise QB who can perform in the clutch.

Tomlin has had that for his entire head coaching career (minus 2019 when Ben was injured, of course).

I agree with most of your points, but do you believe that If Cowher had Ben his entire head coaching career, he would still only have one SB win?

1. Wrong. Cowher had Ben two years, one winning season. Tomlin made 4 playoff appearances with two SB appearances in five years.

2. Chin’s wasn’t as bad? Losing 4 conference championships at home? The idiotic final play against the Bolts with Stan Humphries Being the worst.

3. Reid had a franchise QB in Philly, 6 x Pro Bowler Donovan McNabb. Heard of him? In his nine years at PHI, Andy only had two losing seasons. One SB appearance. He had Alex Smith the majority of his time at KC without a losing record. Yet still has the same amount of championships.

4. I’m not so sure, Ben would have had the career he’s had, if Cowher drafted him 5 or even 10 years earlier. It didn’t fit his doctrine of power running game with great defense. If anything, I think Ben would have been short leashed much of the time.
 

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Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Cowher was in the Super Bowl after I think his third season although with a much different team than he inherited. HCMCS 2008 team was substantially the same as Chin’s 2005 team, I think almost all the coaching staff was the same. I strongly believe that Chin was robbed of one and maybe two Super Bowls by the Pats****** cheating. It is infuriating that we all know what they did and both he and HCMCS refuse to acknowledge it. I’ll allow that’s a sword that cuts both ways since neither Chin or Shades had to face the Cheating Bastiges in any of their Super Bowl seasons.

Just on recall Ron I remember O’Donnell, Mills, Lloyd, Lake, Woodson, Olsavsky were on that team (in Cowher’s 4th year). Olsavsky was the only non starter that played for Noll.

The coaching staff kept were Coach LeBeau, why let him go when they had a top 5 Defense? BA would have the job even if Cowher didn’t retire. Whiz was leaving unless he made HC (Same with Grimm). Coach Buts was already known by Tomlin and was the heir apparent to LeBeau. The only other coach kept was Ray Horton, who was a quasi QC/DB assistant.

I'm behind you 1000% on Belicheat, and will wait till I die for the player/coach/sideline rep who will blow that BS wide open once Kraft quits paying them off. As for Chin and Tomlin not acknowledging it was a factor, you know damn well they personally acknowledge it, but the organization won’t do anything to degrade the league‘s integrity, so they play the good soldier bit. God how I wish Tags was still Commish when it was discovered. Better yet Rozzell. If that happened on his watch, Belichick would have been banned for life and Kraft would have been slapped so hard he wouldn’t be able face the other owners and sell the team.
 

insaniti

Well-known member
I hear what you're saying but the simple fact is that HCMCS hasn't won jack shit in the playoffs since Cowher's players and coaches retired or moved on.
I used to give HCMCS the benefit of the doubt but not any more. Until he proves otherwise I will be one of those saying he won everything he won with Cowher's players.
Horse shit, we went into Denver, minus both Bell and Brown, and still almost won that game. That year Denver won the SB.

And that 2016 season everyone is harping on being the last playoff win, the loss was in the AFC Championship game again the cheaters themselves. What Cowher players did they have in EITHER of those two playoff runs?
 

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insaniti

Well-known member
1. Wrong. Cowher had Ben two years, one winning season. Tomlin made 4 playoff appearances with two SB appearances in five years.

2. Chin’s wasn’t as bad? Losing 4 conference championships at home? The idiotic final play against the Bolts with Stan Humphries Being the worst.

3. Reid had a franchise QB in Philly, 6 x Pro Bowler Donovan McNabb. Heard of him? In his nine years at PHI, Andy only had two losing seasons. One SB appearance. He had Alex Smith the majority of his time at KC without a losing record. Yet still has the same amount of championships.

4. I’m not so sure, Ben would have had the career he’s had, if Cowher drafted him 5 or even 10 years earlier. It didn’t fit his doctrine of power running game with great defense. If anything, I think Ben would have been short leashed much of the time.
Cowher had Ben three seasons. Rookie year 15-1, second year 11-5 SB Champs, third year losing season (retired at the end of the season)
 

slashsteel

Well-known member
Gotta agree to disagree Slash, Cowher had plenty of chances to pick up a franchise QB, but didn’t because it wasn’t his MO. Tomlin’s ”luxury”? What was he supposed to do, cut Ben and get another QB?
Luxury meaning Bill didn't have the same. I thought one time there was a thread that pointed out the lack of opportunities that were present for Bill and co. To draft a franchise QB. Anywho it is time for a playoff win. It has been too long.😉☀️🥓🤓
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
Horse shit, we went into Denver, minus both Bell and Brown, and still almost won that game. That year Denver won the SB.

And that 2016 season everyone is harping on being the last playoff win, the loss was in the AFC Championship game again the cheaters themselves. What Cowher players did they have in EITHER of those two playoff runs?
I don't call losing the AFCCG winning anything. And again, neither Chin or HCMCS ever beat Belicheat and Br*dy in a game that mattered. they might be cheating but after a while you know what they're going to do. I've said for years that what the Pats****** do best is what the Steeler defense does worst, which is short and medium passes. After a while I stopped expecting wins and just got comfortable with a beer and some wings to watch Dick LeBeau get ass-raped.
 
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Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Cowher had Ben three seasons. Rookie year 15-1, second year 11-5 SB Champs, third year losing season (retired at the end of the season)
Thanks insaniti, I stand corrected on that one. I try to forget that last year with Cowher. Just a bad year all around with Ben’s accident, the media questioning his marriage.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Luxury meaning Bill didn't have the same. I thought one time there was a thread that pointed out the lack of opportunities that were present for Bill and co. To draft a franchise QB. Anywho it is time for a playoff win. It has been too long.😉☀️🥓🤓
Hey! Hey! I recall that thread! There wasn’t much opportunities in drafting a QB, but Chin definitely could have been more aggressive in the FA market. Kent Graham?! Really, that’s the best he could have done? It just reinforces his MO. He wanted a game manager, not a playmaker at the position.
 

matarndt

New member
1. Wrong. Cowher had Ben two years, one winning season. Tomlin made 4 playoff appearances with two SB appearances in five years.
Wrong on Cowher. Also, Tomlin benefitted from Ben learning and growing as a player.
2. Chin’s wasn’t as bad? Losing 4 conference championships at home? The idiotic final play against the Bolts with Stan Humphries Being the worst.
He didn't have Ben to help carry him then, unlike the guy who you seem to be portraying as the best coach in the league.
3. Reid had a franchise QB in Philly, 6 x Pro Bowler Donovan McNabb. Heard of him? In his nine years at PHI, Andy only had two losing seasons. One SB appearance. He had Alex Smith the majority of his time at KC without a losing record. Yet still has the same amount of championships.
"What changed for Reid in the last three years? He got a franchise QB who can perform in the clutch." Ben wasn't able to perform in the clutch consistently for a few years, but he got there. Pukey never did. He just had padded stats from throwing the ball 40+ times every game most of his career.
4. I’m not so sure, Ben would have had the career he’s had, if Cowher drafted him 5 or even 10 years earlier. It didn’t fit his doctrine of power running game with great defense. If anything, I think Ben would have been short leashed much of the time.
So, Ben wouldn't have helped the team any more than Kordell Stewart, Jim Miller, MIke Tomczak, Kent Graham, or Tommy Maddox? Ok.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Wrong on Cowher. Also, Tomlin benefitted from Ben learning and growing as a player.

Already honored up on Cowher’s 3 years with Ben. A coach benefited from his QB learning and growing? Nonsense. No player benefits from any coach. It’s all personal talent. Gheez. I guess, Noll benefited from Bradshaw, Walsh with Montana, Shula with Marino, Johnson with Aikman, even Belicheat with Brady. What was Tomlin supposed to do, cut Ben and start fresh at QB? Ludicrous idealology.

He didn't have Ben to help carry him then, unlike the guy who you seem to be portraying as the best coach in the league.

As reiterated previously, Chin had plenty of opportunities besides The Tomczaks, Graham, Stewart and Maddox to have a franchise QB. Miller was never given a chance because Cowher defined roles. His team philosophy on offense didn’t require a franchise QB. Game manager first and foremost. Stewart had too many turnovers, an anathema to Cowher’s QB trust. Maddox‘s lightning in the bottle came with the Tommy Gun offense. Yet, Chin’s philosophy returned when Ben started as a rookie. Ball control offense, which included Ben’s improvisation skills to keep drives going. Whiz even said they kept Ben on a leash so as to not let him think to much and “just play within the offense”

"What changed for Reid in the last three years? He got a franchise QB who can perform in the clutch." Ben wasn't able to perform in the clutch consistently for a few years, but he got there. Pukey never did. He just had padded stats from throwing the ball 40+ times every game most of his career.

Exactly, Andy got the guy he coveted, why? Because he didn’t think Smith could take his offense any farther than he had. Why didn’t Cowher do this? Because I repeat myself again, Chin did not believe in the franchise QB doctrine. He believed in Defense and ball control/clock burning strategy. Build a strong defense, get takeaways, get off on third downs. The Marty Schottenheimer disciple he was. As a reminder Andy has always been offense minded from the Walsh doctrine. Sure you can jest all you want about McNabb, but he won a ton of games for Andy…..doing what Andy wanted him to (“padding his stats by throwing 40 times a game”)

So, Ben wouldn't have helped the team any more than Kordell Stewart, Jim Miller, MIke Tomczak, Kent Graham, or Tommy Maddox? Ok.

Gheez, that is not what I opined. Cowher‘s philosophy wouldn’t have ALLOWED Ben to do his back yard plays ability, because he had an power running game back then. The OCs back then Erhardt, Gailey, etc…all featured that offense. I can remember vividly screaming for more play action or shot gun from Cowher in the playoffs, but that wasn’t his MO. He also knew his MO gave him a damn good percentage to win games. At least until the playoffs as his record attests.

I acknowledge your views and welcome it to the board. I just disagree with some of its foundations.
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
Horse shit, we went into Denver, minus both Bell and Brown, and still almost won that game. That year Denver won the SB.
Except we didn't even belong in the Denver game. The Bengals had the game won the week before until they self-destructed in the last three minutes and Vontaze Birthdefect lost the game for them. That playoff win gets an asterisk from me. When we got to 3 SB's in 6 years, every time either someone else took out the Cheating Bastiges or through a tiebreaker quirk they missed the playoffs.
And that 2016 season everyone is harping on being the last playoff win, the loss was in the AFC Championship game again the cheaters themselves. What Cowher players did they have in EITHER of those two playoff runs?
That's my point. HCMCS hasn't won anything without Cowher's players. Oooh, we won a wild card game, whoop-de-effin'-doo. Again, to be fair, neither Chin or HCMCS ever beat the Cheating Bastiges in a playoff game or any game that mattered.
Just because I'm critical of HCMCS doesn't mean I thought Chin was great or better.
True we didn’t have social media in Chin’s day like we do now but we had message boards, Myron Cope’s talk show, and Stan ‘n Guy on Sportsbeat where Cowher and Martyball/Turtleball were regularly roasted and people calling for him to be fired.
 
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matarndt

New member
Already honored up on Cowher’s 3 years with Ben. A coach benefited from his QB learning and growing? Nonsense. No player benefits from any coach. It’s all personal talent. Gheez. I guess, Noll benefited from Bradshaw, Walsh with Montana, Shula with Marino, Johnson with Aikman, even Belicheat with Brady. What was Tomlin supposed to do, cut Ben and start fresh at QB? Ludicrous idealology.
Ben became a better QB over time. Tomlin had Ben as he approached and reached his prime, for over a decade. Cowher didn't. Pretty simple. I'm not saying Ben is perfect and didn't make his share of costly mistakes which sometimes get projected onto the HC in terms of wins/losses, but Cowher did not have Ben anywhere near his prime.
As reiterated previously, Chin had plenty of opportunities besides The Tomczaks, Graham, Stewart and Maddox to have a franchise QB. Miller was never given a chance because Cowher defined roles. His team philosophy on offense didn’t require a franchise QB. Game manager first and foremost. Stewart had too many turnovers, an anathema to Cowher’s QB trust. Maddox‘s lightning in the bottle came with the Tommy Gun offense. Yet, Chin’s philosophy returned when Ben started as a rookie. Ball control offense, which included Ben’s improvisation skills to keep drives going. Whiz even said they kept Ben on a leash so as to not let him think to much and “just play within the offense”
As Ben became a better QB, I fully believe that Cowher would have allowed him to influence the offense more, just like he did with Maddox.
Exactly, Andy got the guy he coveted, why? Because he didn’t think Smith could take his offense any farther than he had. Why didn’t Cowher do this? Because I repeat myself again, Chin did not believe in the franchise QB doctrine. He believed in Defense and ball control/clock burning strategy. Build a strong defense, get takeaways, get off on third downs. The Marty Schottenheimer disciple he was. As a reminder Andy has always been offense minded from the Walsh doctrine. Sure you can jest all you want about McNabb, but he won a ton of games for Andy…..doing what Andy wanted him to (“padding his stats by throwing 40 times a game”)
I agree with your assessment of Cowher's philosophy, but he was capable of adjusting to allow new schemes to help the team, as evidenced by Maddox. You seem to be saying that Cowher was set in his ways, while at the same time acknowledging that he allowed himself to change during the Maddox year(s).

Sure, McNabb won a ton of games, just none that really mattered. I recognize that I might not be able to say that if the Patriots hadn't been allowed to cheat for 20 years, though.
Gheez, that is not what I opined. Cowher‘s philosophy wouldn’t have ALLOWED Ben to do his back yard plays ability, because he had an power running game back then. The OCs back then Erhardt, Gailey, etc…all featured that offense. I can remember vividly screaming for more play action or shot gun from Cowher in the playoffs, but that wasn’t his MO. He also knew his MO gave him a damn good percentage to win games. At least until the playoffs as his record attests.

I acknowledge your views and welcome it to the board. I just disagree with some of its foundations.
Cowher allowed the offense to change when Maddox came in. He changed back with a rookie QB, which made sense. He was not so hard-headed that he wouldn't have allowed Ben to be Ben when he recognized the full potential of doing so.

I seem to be repeating myself, so I'll just say that I fully believe Cowher would have adjusted to Ben's abilities and would have been more successful than Tomlin because of it.
 

insaniti

Well-known member
Except we didn't even belong in the Denver game. The Bengals had the game won the week before until they self-destructed in the last three minutes and Vontaze Birthdefect lost the game for them. That playoff win gets an asterisk from me. When we got to 3 SB's in 6 years, every time either someone else took out the Cheating Bastiges or through a tiebreaker quirk they missed the playoffs.

That's my point. HCMCS hasn't won anything without Cowher's players. Oooh, we won a wild card game, whoop-de-effin'-doo. Again, to be fair, neither Chin or HCMCS ever beat the Cheating Bastiges in a playoff game or any game that mattered.
Just because I'm critical of HCMCS doesn't mean I thought Chin was great or better.
True we didn’t have social media in Chin’s day like we do now but we had message boards, Myron Cope’s talk show, and Stan ‘n Guy on Sportsbeat where Cowher and Martyball/Turtleball were regularly roasted and people calling for him to be fired.
So it's winning the super bowl, or absolutely nothing else got it. And for some reason, even winning it all only matters of we beat the Patriots.

Some of the arguments you people make are absolutely ridiculous.

Also the Bengals didn't have the game won. We were up 15-0 when Burfict sacked Ben, and with an extra knee that the refs missed, Ben was carted off missing most of the fourth quarter. That play was the only reason the Bengals even had a chance for a comeback as Landry Jones was 2/5 for 11 yards and an INT in Bens place.

Also we just converted a first down and were across midfield with 28 seconds and a time out left. The Burfict hit on brown put us in FG range, the PF on Jones made it a chip shot.
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
So it's winning the super bowl, or absolutely nothing else got it. And for some reason, even winning it all only matters of we beat the Patriots.

Some of the arguments you people make are absolutely ridiculous.

Also the Bengals didn't have the game won. We were up 15-0 when Burfict sacked Ben, and with an extra knee that the refs missed, Ben was carted off missing most of the fourth quarter. That play was the only reason the Bengals even had a chance for a comeback as Landry Jones was 2/5 for 11 yards and an INT in Bens place.

Also we just converted a first down and were across midfield with 28 seconds and a time out left. The Burfict hit on brown put us in FG range, the PF on Jones made it a chip shot.
“If you ain’t first, you’re last.” - Ricky Bobby
IMO you don’t have to win the SB but you have to get to it. Anything less is falling short.
Anytime a team wins a championship a little bit of luck is involved. For the Steelers luck means not having to face the Cheating Bastiges in the playoffs. The evidence indicates that no matter how good the Steelers are, Belicheat will beat them in a playoff game. Yes he cheats but the field is leveled somewhat because we know what he is going to do…and still can’t stop it. Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning beat the Cheats TWICE in the SB. Must mean they’re better than Shades and Ben.
Bungles don’t commit those late game penalties, we don’t get close enough for a FG.
 
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Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Ben became a better QB over time. Tomlin had Ben as he approached and reached his prime, for over a decade. Cowher didn't. Pretty simple. I'm not saying Ben is perfect and didn't make his share of costly mistakes which sometimes get projected onto the HC in terms of wins/losses, but Cowher did not have Ben anywhere near his prime.

And that is Tomlin’s fault? That Cowher didn’t have a QB anywhere in his prime? Jake Plummer was rumored, and that Mr. Rooney was high on Charlie Batch (Steel Valley local), but they had Stewart then and he was developing behind the rush first offense. That’s only the draft. I’d have to research all the FA through those years, even then Cowher didn’t sniff them anyway.

As Ben became a better QB, I fully believe that Cowher would have allowed him to influence the offense more, just like he did with Maddox

Like Maddox? You mean two years he started? The second one after Cowher ditched the Tommy Gun and went back to the Bettis starting as RB. Cowher had only one winning season with Maddox, and neither season was the offense near the top in passing. I hardly would quantify him as an example. Stewart would be a better example, and for a couple years he was successful, but his T/Os drove Cowher crazy and pushed him to Maddox, who was selling insurance before he showed up for minicamp in 2001. FYI, Maddox had 45 T/Os in two years as a full time starter. AND STILL wasn’t looking to draft a QB at 13. He was going to draft an OT had Mr Rooney not steered the conversation back to Ben. Chin, did not follow a franchise QB philosophy.

I agree with your assessment of Cowher's philosophy, but he was capable of adjusting to allow new schemes to help the team, as evidenced by Maddox. You seem to be saying that Cowher was set in his ways, while at the same time acknowledging that he allowed himself to change during the Maddox year(s).

Sure, McNabb won a ton of games, just none that really mattered. I recognize that I might not be able to say that if the Patriots hadn't been allowed to cheat for 20 years, though.

You are telling me Cowher wasn’t set in his ways? Throughout his tenure what was his teams defined as? Defense and Rushing attack. Show me different. It was one of the reasons I loved Cowher. Smash mouth physical football.

Cowher allowed the offense to change when Maddox came in. He changed back with a rookie QB, which made sense. He was not so hard-headed that he wouldn't have allowed Ben to be Ben when he recognized the full potential of doing so.

I seem to be repeating myself, so I'll just say that I fully believe Cowher would have adjusted to Ben's abilities and would have been more successful than Tomlin because of it.

Cowher changed the offense for one reason, he went with his gut starting Zereoue over Bettis and said Maddox out performed Stewart in completions and not turning the ball over.

And he didn’t change back, Ben got the start because of Maddox’s injury. Whiz simplified the offense for the rookie QB, and Ben’s amazing talent to freestyle helped win games. It was nothing to do with him allowing to be Ben to be Ben. He himself would say he was on a leash, and indicate that Jerome “was the Mayor“ of this team.

We are repeating together in disagreement. Which is fine. Agree to disagree.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
Please elaborate on these chances to get a franchise QB.

I addressed the draft periods in Matarndts reply. The FA during that period will take some research, but I know there were more out there than Tomczak, Graham and Maddox. At least he got Charlie Batch as a FA, but didn’t need him starting after Ben’s succcess.
 

matarndt

New member
And that is Tomlin’s fault? That Cowher didn’t have a QB anywhere in his prime? Jake Plummer was rumored, and that Mr. Rooney was high on Charlie Batch (Steel Valley local), but they had Stewart then and he was developing behind the rush first offense. That’s only the draft. I’d have to research all the FA through those years, even then Cowher didn’t sniff them anyway.
It wasn't anyone's fault, but you seem dead set on downplaying the fact that Tomlin has had Ben for his entire tenure (four+ times longer than Cowher had, and the time Cowher with Ben was before he fully developed), and that it directly contributed to his "success" as a head coach. It doesn't seem to matter to you. I honestly cannot fathom that. So, we have nothing further to discuss there.
Like Maddox? You mean two years he started? The second one after Cowher ditched the Tommy Gun and went back to the Bettis starting as RB. Cowher had only one winning season with Maddox, and neither season was the offense near the top in passing. I hardly would quantify him as an example. Stewart would be a better example, and for a couple years he was successful, but his T/Os drove Cowher crazy and pushed him to Maddox, who was selling insurance before he showed up for minicamp in 2001. FYI, Maddox had 45 T/Os in two years as a full time starter. AND STILL wasn’t looking to draft a QB at 13. He was going to draft an OT had Mr Rooney not steered the conversation back to Ben. Chin, did not follow a franchise QB philosophy.
Doesn't matter whether you would quantify him as an example. He is, because Cowher allowed the offense to change. (Like he did with Stewart, but differently.) I believe he would have done the same with Ben had he decided to coach a few more years after seeing Ben's maturation as a passer.
You are telling me Cowher wasn’t set in his ways? Throughout his tenure what was his teams defined as? Defense and Rushing attack. Show me different. It was one of the reasons I loved Cowher. Smash mouth physical football.



Cowher changed the offense for one reason, he went with his gut starting Zereoue over Bettis and said Maddox out performed Stewart in completions and not turning the ball over.

And he didn’t change back, Ben got the start because of Maddox’s injury. Whiz simplified the offense for the rookie QB, and Ben’s amazing talent to freestyle helped win games. It was nothing to do with him allowing to be Ben to be Ben. He himself would say he was on a leash, and indicate that Jerome “was the Mayor“ of this team.
So, Cowher had nothing to do with Whiz simplifying the offense for the rookie QB? Got it.

For clarification, the progression of Ben's development during the time that Cowher might have had with him had he stayed on as head coach was what I was referring to when I said that Cowher would have "allowed Ben to be Ben." Ben proving what he could do as a passer over time would have convinced Cowher to allow him to pass more.
We are repeating together in disagreement. Which is fine. Agree to disagree.
We agree! It is funny that we got on this subject in an Anthony-Chickillo-retirement thread.
 

SteelerFan448

Well-known member
I addressed the draft periods in Matarndts reply. The FA during that period will take some research, but I know there were more out there than Tomczak, Graham and Maddox. At least he got Charlie Batch as a FA, but didn’t need him starting after Ben’s succcess.
I'll save you the time. Franchise QBs don't hit UFA. The Steelers had what they had and Cowher's teams won a playoff game at least once in 8 out of 15 years while making it to 6 conference title games compared to Tomlin who won at least one playoff game 4 out of 14 years and advanced to 3 conference title games with a franchise QB.
 

SanDiegoSteeler

Well-known member
Banging my head against the wall trying to decipher what the acronym HCMCS is. Head coach mike/colbert is far as I have gotten..
help.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
It wasn't anyone's fault, but you seem dead set on downplaying the fact that Tomlin has had Ben for his entire tenure (four+ times longer than Cowher had, and the time Cowher with Ben was before he fully developed), and that it directly contributed to his "success" as a head coach. It doesn't seem to matter to you. I honestly cannot fathom that. So, we have nothing further to discuss there.

I’m not down playing anything. It is your opinion that Cowher would have won multiple SB or playoff games had Ben been there 10 years.
In response you are overestimating what you think Cowher’s mindset On the importance of QBs in his team strategy. I’m saying, Cowher‘s MO, learned from his mentor, didn’t follow a franchise QB ran offense. Ball control/ run the clock. He inherited O’Donnell, the best QB he had until Ben. Who knows what would have happened had not NYJ threw all that money at him. During his entire tenure, after O’Donnell, he had maybe 3-5 years where he threw more than he passed and had a losing record in three of them. Hell, the first couple years he HAD Ben, they rushed almost twice as much. His last year, (losing season), more passing/less rushing.

Doesn't matter whether you would quantify him as an example. He is, because Cowher allowed the offense to change. (Like he did with Stewart, but differently.) I believe he would have done the same with Ben had he decided to coach a few more years after seeing Ben's maturation as a passer.

Of course it matters. He allowed the offense to change ONE year, ok 22 games, until he flushed the Tommy Gun back to Bettis Primary, Maddox secondary. Although it was too late (losing season). Cowher‘s offense changed? He allowed Sherman and Gilbride to run the same offense Chan Gailey had (Stewart’s best OC) back to back and was worse each year because why? Yep. Pass first play calling. I blame Chin for those hirings. He wised up bringing in Mularkey who was under Gailey and returned to what worked. Yet through that time T/Os were piling up at QB and Cowher had to put in Maddox, who threw more passes than Stewart ever did, again to a losing record, twice.

So, Cowher had nothing to do with Whiz simplifying the offense for the rookie QB? Got it.

For clarification, the progression of Ben's development during the time that Cowher might have had with him had he stayed on as head coach was what I was referring to when I said that Cowher would have "allowed Ben to be Ben." Ben proving what he could do as a passer over time would have convinced Cowher to allow him to pass more.

Sigh…man, Cowher had everything to do with simplifying the offense. Whiz was the OC and Chin wanted Bettis as the focal point, not the rookie QB. Therefore his play calling was geared towards the rush. Why is that difficult to understand?

We agree! It is funny that we got on this subject in an Anthony-Chickillo-retirement thread.

Yep, the board works in mysterious ways. Or Coolie is slipping.
 

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