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Chase Claypool leads the NFL in DPI yards

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Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
but you are wrong...Ben is not forcing shit, he is hitting the open receiver. Johnson is quicker and tends to get open sooner..IMO...when the safeties move up that is when Ben goes deep, and I have said many times the deep balls should be to Claypool, but Johnson and Washington have made deep plays also.



. No one said those routes couldn't be jumped by a DB...I said a DC has never jumped one. I trust Ben on preventing the DB from jumping one of Johnson's routes, he is smart enough to see how they are playing and either go with the pump fake and send Johnson down field or hit another open receiver.

This is just another case of you finding some bullshit thing to latch on to and not wanting to view the situation with an open mind

Ben is not just finding the open receiver, he is reading the defense and understanding who will be the open receiver based on how the both S's react at the snap. He is playing darn smart football right now. I don't have the film this year so can't watch, but I suspect Claypool is probably drawing doubles most plays. Teams have to look at our receivers and prioritize him as the biggest threat.

How far into the article that you originally cited did you read? I'm asking because it seems to me that you may have missed the parts about how physicality from the WRs help lead to DPI and how:



Now, to my mind, you can't always count on the refs to actually call DPI when it's there. That means you had better have a receiver that can defeat the physicality of the CBs, maintain his route and make the catch. (Johnson has issues with this last part sometimes, I will admit). The thing that bothers me about your post is that you make it out to be an "either this, or that" thing when what's best for the team, what has actually been working is "This, That AND The Others".



ALL GREAT POINTS Gentlemen. It's not just stats but how those stats are made and at what part of the game they are made.

Example (not passing). The last game of the Chiefs (can't remember who they played) at the end of the game both teams had near identical penalties number and yards. My Chiefs friend said it was a straight officiated game due to the fact of equality in penalties. I reminded him that most of the Chief's penalty yards were incurred on non-factors in the game whereas the opposing team's penalties stopped drives and were at crucial times. It almost seemed cheatriot-esc for awhile from what I saw.

So to close I'm saying one needs to watch the games, see what the players are doing and then determine if one is being forced feed (he isn't) and the other not enough touches (he's getting his touches and capitalizing on them). I think it's a good mixture of the ball being spread around by using the short game to set up the long game and visa-versa pending on how the "D" is playing. OUR superstar QB is making that determination very well and being very smart on who gets the rock.



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tapeANaspirin2it

Well-known member
Claypool needs more touches. Agree with you there. But believe it or not these short predetermined throws where Johnson cuts ( usually to the sideline ) can be jumped by a Db's knowing based on formation and field potion, which way Johnson will cut.

When you milk the short passing game what happens? Safeties are deployed closer to the LOS, right? Exactly and that makes it a little tougher to run the ball. When you hit a deep pass or two, what happens? Safeties tend to back off giving the back a bit more room to run. I think you get it. Other yahoo's probably not.

Johnson is averaging 11 yards per catch, and converting on 60.5% of his catches. By contrast Claypool is averaging 14.2 yards per catch, has scored double the amount of touchdowns, and draws way more impactful pass interference calls. To me its clean Johnson is being force feed a bit too much by Ben and Claypool needs more targets.

You pretty much disproved your own thesis. You stated that throwing short a bunch opens up the deep ball. That's right. The opposite is also true. Claypool hit some big plays and now defenses are playing back so Ben is taking the open throws underneath. When they do creep up, that's when Ben throws deep. That's how offense is supposed to work. You don't just decide to throw deep no matter what.

If they keep throwing deep then doesn't that mean the coverage gets tougher on Claypool deep? Or do you expect them to just keep single covering Claypool and letting the steelers complete bombs while taking away the short throws to DJ?

You are advocating that the steelers should make more low % throws. You state that if they keep throwing short to DJ, that defenses will start playing that tighter. GREAT. That's exactly what we want. Ben is waiting for that to happen to throw deep, but you don't force it.

Ben still does not have his timing down with DJ. When they get in sync, more of these short throws will start breaking big.
 

Confluence

Well-known member
You pretty much disproved your own thesis. You stated that throwing short a bunch opens up the deep ball. That's right. The opposite is also true. Claypool hit some big plays and now defenses are playing back so Ben is taking the open throws underneath. When they do creep up, that's when Ben throws deep. That's how offense is supposed to work. You don't just decide to throw deep no matter what.

If they keep throwing deep then doesn't that mean the coverage gets tougher on Claypool deep? Or do you expect them to just keep single covering Claypool and letting the steelers complete bombs while taking away the short throws to DJ?

You are advocating that the steelers should make more low % throws. You state that if they keep throwing short to DJ, that defenses will start playing that tighter. GREAT. That's exactly what we want. Ben is waiting for that to happen to throw deep, but you don't force it.

Ben still does not have his timing down with DJ. When they get in sync, more of these short throws will start breaking big.
Its like you actually watch the games!

Maybe we could all pitch in and buy cooch a 32" teeveevee so he can actually watch some football.

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Cope

Podcast/ VidCast/ Writer
12 catches on 16 targets are as good as ABs production in a game. DJ is open quicker and faster, and benefiting from Claypool's double teams. I did love Chase's TD. It was probably his best play on the ball, facing it, and catching it with both hands while working back to the ball between 2 defenders. We have some great receivers on this team.
 

CoolieMan

Most INtelligent Poster
12 catches on 16 targets are as good as ABs production in a game. DJ is open quicker and faster, and benefiting from Claypool's double teams. I did love Chase's TD. It was probably his best play on the ball, facing it, and catching it with both hands while working back to the ball between 2 defenders. We have some great receivers on this team.

yep, like some really intelligent poster has said previously, it is impossible to shut down all of them. Maybe the defense can take JuJu out of the game...and maybe Claypool also...but then you just have Johnson, Washington, Ebron, McCloud or even the RB out of the backfield to cover. No Defense has enough guys to shut them all down. That is why it is so great that Ben is comfortable throwing to all these guys.

There is no need to force the ball to any one receiver when you need a tough conversion on 3rd down.

As long as Ben stays healthy this should continue to be a fun season of football
 

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SteelerFan448

Well-known member
Claypool needs more touches. Agree with you there. But believe it or not these short predetermined throws where Johnson cuts ( usually to the sideline ) can be jumped by a Db's knowing based on formation and field potion, which way Johnson will cut.

Johnson is averaging 11 yards per catch, and converting on 60.5% of his catches. By contrast Claypool is averaging 14.2 yards per catch, has scored double the amount of touchdowns, and draws way more impactful pass interference calls. To me its clean Johnson is being force feed a bit too much by Ben and Claypool needs more targets.

Johnson isn’t force fed by Ben. It isn’t blanket coverage in most of the throws, the guy is just really good at getting open and some on this board don’t like him because he makes the occasional mistake.

Back to Claypool. He’s having a terrific rookie season but maybe you wouldn’t think he would need more touches if he didn’t drop so many catchable balls.
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
WhoALy shit,........... You mean Claypool is on our team..?


I'll have to watch teevee. More often


Salute the nation
 

Cope

Podcast/ VidCast/ Writer
yep, like some really intelligent poster has said previously, it is impossible to shut down all of them. Maybe the defense can take JuJu out of the game...and maybe Claypool also...but then you just have Johnson, Washington, Ebron, McCloud or even the RB out of the backfield to cover. No Defense has enough guys to shut them all down. That is why it is so great that Ben is comfortable throwing to all these guys.

There is no need to force the ball to any one receiver when you need a tough conversion on 3rd down.

As long as Ben stays healthy this should continue to be a fun season of football

That intellligent poster must be listening to my podcast. Football IQ is proven to go up 30 points by listening to the podcast ;)

And great point 448, Ben threw 1 ball where the defender could even get a hand on the ball to DJ. The incompletions are miscommunications, DJ falling down, or rushed throws by Ben that are a little off. This goes back to the metric for DJ that he gets more separation yardage than any other player in the league when he makes a break. Coach it's time you start recognizing how good DJ's route running is now. When he and Ben are in complete synch, we're winning Superbowls. Plural...
 

Hoot

Well-known member
That intellligent poster must be listening to my podcast. Football IQ is proven to go up 30 points by listening to the podcast ;)

And great point 448, Ben threw 1 ball where the defender could even get a hand on the ball to DJ. The incompletions are miscommunications, DJ falling down, or rushed throws by Ben that are a little off. This goes back to the metric for DJ that he gets more separation yardage than any other player in the league when he makes a break. Coach it's time you start recognizing how good DJ's route running is now. When he and Ben are in complete synch, we're winning Superbowls. Plural...

Football IQ? Football IQ? Don't talk to me about Football IQ. I only listen for the beard grooming tips and Holiday Trivia.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
That intellligent poster must be listening to my podcast. Football IQ is proven to go up 30 points by listening to the podcast ;)

And great point 448, Ben threw 1 ball where the defender could even get a hand on the ball to DJ. The incompletions are miscommunications, DJ falling down, or rushed throws by Ben that are a little off. This goes back to the metric for DJ that he gets more separation yardage than any other player in the league when he makes a break. Coach it's time you start recognizing how good DJ's route running is now. When he and Ben are in complete synch, we're winning Superbowls. Plural...

Here let’s make it easier for OutCoached to understand what your proven accurate statement.

A. Johnson runs the best routes of all the receivers. Has the greatest separation between all 6 WR on the squad.

B. With the greatest separation %, the more open he is for targets.

C. QB (Ben) is spreading the ball to all receivers based on the said open targets. The top 4 pass catchers are all within a 100 yards of each other. So every player is getting targets, Ben is growing to open targets primarily.

What’s so hard to understand? If you ask 10 football people they would all say the same thing. So logically, your view is flawed, until Claypool matures and improves his separation even more. When DJ, JuJu, Washington, Ebron starts killing the underneath routes, Claypool won’t get double covered and have 1 on 1 coverage to make a play.


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Coach

ATTENTION WHORE
but you are wrong...Ben is not forcing shit, he is hitting the open receiver. Johnson is quicker and tends to get open sooner..IMO...when the safeties move up that is when Ben goes deep, and I have said many times the deep balls should be to Claypool, but Johnson and Washington have made deep plays also.



. No one said those routes couldn't be jumped by a DB...I said a DC has never jumped one. I trust Ben on preventing the DB from jumping one of Johnson's routes, he is smart enough to see how they are playing and either go with the pump fake and send Johnson down field or hit another open receiver.

This is just another case of you finding some bullshit thing to latch on to and not wanting to view the situation with an open mind


Do you watch the games? Ben's looking for #18 too often while other guys are open for more yardage. Post in the game day thread sometime, you'll see but Claypool or Ju-Ju was open for more yardage. It's not a big point to harp on since Ben has been playing well, but he does have a past history of throwing some really bad passes over the middle, usually in a zone coverage short ( where someone jumps or guesses on defense ) which is where Johnson operates best. Relative to his targets per catch percentage, Big plays, and TD's, Johnson is being over used. Claypool by the same standard is being under used.

On Johnson, he's not the type to fight out out muscle anyone. On timing throws to the outside if a DB guesses it, a pick 6 can happen. We seem to throw that timing pass to the sideline often. What if what if the DC puts a safety to take over coveverage allowing his CB to gamble? Those timing passes are working now, so was the jet sweep a few weeks ago. Like I said to make dink and dunk passes makes it harder to tun the ball as well.

I think you are just smart enough to understand what I am talking about, then I again I have been wrong here before.
 
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Cope

Podcast/ VidCast/ Writer
The only pick 6 that nearly happened was a deep ball down the middle to JuJu/Washington. If Ben didn't make that tackle, it was 6.

If you watch the games, break down DJs game last week. Targeted 16 times, 12 receptions. One catch was a beautifully fought ball at the goalline on the sideline between 2 defenders.

I saw one pass broken up on a sideline pass. Tell me what happened on the other three.
 

Coach

ATTENTION WHORE
The only pick 6 that nearly happened was a deep ball down the middle to JuJu/Washington. If Ben didn't make that tackle, it was 6.

If you watch the games, break down DJs game last week. Targeted 16 times, 12 receptions. One catch was a beautifully fought ball at the goalline on the sideline between 2 defenders.

I saw one pass broken up on a sideline pass. Tell me what happened on the other three.

I'm talking about historically for Ben's interceptions. I do remember a jump ball where DJ's effort didn't look good and the result was an interception. Like you said we need balance. DJ should not have 12 catches when Claypool and Ju have just 4 each. That is what I am saying. I'm also saying Claypool or Ju Ju is more likely to make the impactful type of plays that win games. DJ can make big plays too, he just doesn't do it as often. Yes, the sideline catch was sweet last Sunday.

As for reliability, Washington has been very. Johnson sometimes not does balls he should have have that he gets his hands on.
 

Black & Gold Bleeder

Well-known member
Historically, dionte Johnson was a rookie last year. Ben takes the throws that are open. There is no litmus as to everyone should get equal amount of catches.
 

Cope

Podcast/ VidCast/ Writer
I'm talking about historically for Ben's interceptions. I do remember a jump ball where DJ's effort didn't look good and the result was an interception. Like you said we need balance. DJ should not have 12 catches when Claypool and Ju have just 4 each. That is what I am saying. I'm also saying Claypool or Ju Ju is more likely to make the impactful type of plays that win games. DJ can make big plays too, he just doesn't do it as often. Yes, the sideline catch was sweet last Sunday.

As for reliability, Washington has been very. Johnson sometimes not does balls he should have have that he gets his hands on.

I hear you coach, but I don't diminish their reception numbers. there were 4 players with 4 receptions, not just Claypool and JuJu. Ebron and Ray Ray also had 4. This is Ben doing an excellent job of spreading the football around. Ben is finding the open receiver and getting them the ball. That is the most important thing we need to take from his ball distribution. That and the top receivers change each game.
 

SteelBuckeye

Well-known member
Do you watch the games? Ben's looking for #18 too often while other guys are open for more yardage. (1)Post in the game day thread sometime, you'll see but Claypool or Ju-Ju was open for more yardage. 2 It's not a big point to harp on since Ben has been playing well, but he does have a past history of throwing some really bad passes over the middle, usually in a zone coverage short ( where someone jumps or guesses on defense ) which is where Johnson operates best.3 Relative to his targets per catch percentage, Big plays, and TD's, Johnson is being over used. Claypool by the same standard is being under used.4

On Johnson, he's not the type to fight out out muscle anyone. On timing throws to the outside if a DB guesses it, a pick 6 can happen. We seem to throw that timing pass to the sideline often 4. What if what if the DC puts a safety to take over coveverage allowing his CB to gamble? 5Those timing passes are working now, so was the jet sweep a few weeks ago. Like I said to make dink and dunk passes makes it harder to tun the ball as well.

I think you are just smart enough to understand what I am talking about, then I again I have been wrong here before.

1. Ben is throwing to the open man. DJ is usually that guy who is open on the quick hitting throws to the outside when those plays are called. His yards of separation per route run leads this team by a comfortable margin.

2. Posting in the game thread will neither increase the probability that Claypool or JuJu gets the ball more often nor impact the game in any other way. Funny thing, often we talk about who was open as if that is a static observation devoid of factors like: "were they open when the ball was thrown?" or "Did the QB have enough time to see them breaking open or was there pressure coming that made him choose the best available option while under duress". Just because you see it on your big screen doesn't mean Ben had the time or opportunity to see it himself. Also understand that the game plan may have called for chipping away at a particular CBs confidence a little at a time until you leave him shell shocked by his inability to stop what you're doing.

3. Actually, it's JuJu and sometimes Chase that work the short zone in this offense. Pretty smart as they are bigger, tougher receivers who could more easily absorb the hits that come in that territory. You're confusing Johnson with AB's tendencies. Johnson works best on the sideline routes; short and quick, intermediate and lately he's been running some very good deep routes. But usually they get him the ball on the outside, in space, where he can use his agility and quickness to gain yards after the catch.

4. Possibly because no one has actually been able to cover Johnson on that pass? If folks can't stop what you're doing, why change for the sake of change?

5. We've seen that happen. In those situations, JuJu has had a great game. Or Chase has had a great game. Ebron is utilized more. You'd hope your QB, after 17 years in the league, could recognize the coverage and react accordingly. So far, Ben has.

Look, I get it. Teams have to be prepared to make adjustments to what they're doing when other teams start to take those things away. So far, no one has taken away what the Steelers do best. That's because Ben has been very versatile with where he's throwing the ball. That's based on his seeing who is open, the timing of the play, etc. They're playing good ball. You don't fuck with it.

btw: Signed up to be a contributor using the $8/month automatic billing option a couple of days ago. Just waiting for my badge and perks. $8/month. Not a bad deal.
 
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CoolieMan

Most INtelligent Poster
Do you watch the games? Ben's looking for #18 too often while other guys are open for more yardage. Post in the game day thread sometime, you'll see but Claypool or Ju-Ju was open for more yardage. It's not a big point to harp on since Ben has been playing well, but he does have a past history of throwing some really bad passes over the middle, usually in a zone coverage short ( where someone jumps or guesses on defense ) which is where Johnson operates best. Relative to his targets per catch percentage, Big plays, and TD's, Johnson is being over used. Claypool by the same standard is being under used.

On Johnson, he's not the type to fight out out muscle anyone. On timing throws to the outside if a DB guesses it, a pick 6 can happen. We seem to throw that timing pass to the sideline often. What if what if the DC puts a safety to take over coveverage allowing his CB to gamble? Those timing passes are working now, so was the jet sweep a few weeks ago. Like I said to make dink and dunk passes makes it harder to tun the ball as well.

I think you are just smart enough to understand what I am talking about, then I again I have been wrong here before.

oh dear lord posting in the game thread doesn't do anything but point out who the biggest whinny bitches on the site are Any bad play brings out the fucktards. Posting in it will not let me see which receivers were open deeper down the field on any given play. You do realize that nobody can see the whole field at one time. Ben is going through his reads on each play and takes the play he sees as the best.

Pulling stats from one game and trying to argue that one receiver is being "forced" the ball too much is idiotic.

for the season, JuJU has 58 receptions, DJ has 49 and claypool has 39 (and claypool was really used much in the first 3 games) Claypool's breakout game he was targeted 11 times while DJ had 1 target and JuJu had 5. Were they forcing the ball to Claypool? No defenses were not concerned with him yet so Ben fed the hot player and had huge results.

Each game is different, each defense is going to try and stop different aspects of the Steeler's offense. Ben is figuring out during the game which plays and which receivers are going to be open when he is ready to get rid of the ball.

If the DC tries to put a safety over the route to the sideline so the CB can gamble, do you think Ben won't read that either pre-snap or once the play begins to develop? And when he sees that, do you not think that one of the other very talented receivers will not be in a less dangerous coverage and Ben will find that guy instead?

everyone knows the short game makes running the ball harder, but as has been pointed out by several posters, those short routes open up the deep shots in the passing game which then open up the running game and the short passing game again. It is a cycle and Ben has to know where the defense is at any point in the game and know which routes to exploit. So far he seems to be pushing the right buttons more often than not.

This is just another example of you trying to use stats to make a point, but totally missing reality.

Through 10 games JuJu is averaging 5.8 receptions, DJ 4.9 and Claypool 3.9...but if you exclude the first 3 games where he was not used much, he is averaging about 5.1 receptions in the last 7 games (just ball parking based on the few receptions I remember from the first 3 weeks...did not go pull the actual stats)

To me, that looks like Ben is spreading the ball pretty well. He is finding the best matchup each game and exploiting the defenses weakness instead of forcing the ball to any single receiver.
 

Ike Kelly

P-38L Fan
L O L @ cooch trying to use do you watch the games angle when he can't decipher anything he watches without coming across looking like an idiot. You just know he won't grasp anything you tell him. He will probably be spewing the same dumb shit next week.

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But OutCoached has said he doesn’t watch games. Whenever he does, he says it’s at a bar where he is treated like a king...


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slashsteel

Well-known member
But OutCoached has said he doesn’t watch games. Whenever he does, he says it’s at a bar where he is treated like a king...


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Which is even funnier when he tries to use that angle to desperately discredit someone. Flailing those robot arms like a lost in space episode.

Regardless always hard to tell what is the truth and what is made up with him.

I tell you I never seen a fan so scared to give up his address. He was deathly afraid that someone might look up and see that his braggart doesn't =reality.
 

CoolieMan

Most INtelligent Poster
Which is even funnier when he tries to use that angle to desperately discredit someone. Flailing those robot arms like a lost in space episode.

Regardless always hard to tell what is the truth and what is made up with him.

I tell you I never seen a fan so scared to give up his address. He was deathly afraid that someone might look up and see that his braggart doesn't =reality.

I like how he has thrown out several times about posters not being in the game day thread. as if being in the thread makes you more knowledgeable on what happens in the game. Odds are he likes to be in it so he can pretend he watched the game and pick up stuff from other posters who are actually watching it so he can fake it in later posts....
 

Steelworth

Absolutely Worthless
Will echo what DIC said in that was an excellent post, Buckeye. And Coach, don't ever knock anyone's living circumstances (what you've done to Slash now multiple times when you're here to just talk football) when you can't even shell out 8 bucks a month for a football message forum you have almost 15,000 posts on.

And asking if people watch the games? LMMFAO. GTFOOH.
 

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