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Fire Tomlin

diver

Well-known member
Big difference between drafting what turned out to be great players and acquiring/signing them.
That may be so, but my point was that to be considered a great coach, you have to have players with "high level skills." It almost seemed as if you were derogatory of Tomlin because he needs guys with those skills. Every coach, to be good, needs those guys.
 

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Djfan

Well-known member
That may be so, but my point was that to be considered a great coach, you have to have players with "high level skills." It almost seemed as if you were derogatory of Tomlin because he needs guys with those skills. Every coach, to be good, needs those guys.
But some coaches can coach them up to that, and some can put together situations for them to play to their strengths, and great ones do both, consistently.
 

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mdk2

Well-known member
That may be so, but my point was that to be considered a great coach, you have to have players with "high level skills." It almost seemed as if you were derogatory of Tomlin because he needs guys with those skills. Every coach, to be good, needs those guys.
There are a lot of defensive HC's that don't need 1st round talent at every position on defense to field a good defense. Tomlin is not one.
 

FordFairLane

Well-known member
Just watched a YouTube video that popped on after Pittsburgh Dad. Highlight video of roethlisberger’s rookie season. One thing I noticed, besides how mobile Ben was, was how everyone hustled. Cam Heyward hustled to stop Herbert and we all give kudos. But under Cowher everyone hustled. I would say on defense at best half the team hustles on every play. And I’m being generous. That’s again the identity of the coach. Tomlin doesn’t hustle so why would his team. Cowher charged the field with passion. His team played to the whistle. coincidence? Nope
 

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diver

Well-known member
Just watched a YouTube video that popped on after Pittsburgh Dad. Highlight video of roethlisberger’s rookie season. One thing I noticed, besides how mobile Ben was, was how everyone hustled. Cam Heyward hustled to stop Herbert and we all give kudos. But under Cowher everyone hustled. I would say on defense at best half the team hustles on every play. And I’m being generous. That’s again the identity of the coach. Tomlin doesn’t hustle so why would his team. Cowher charged the field with passion. His team played to the whistle. coincidence? Nope
In around 2004 you would have seen many of the same complaints about Cowher on this board as you do Tomlin today. All you'd have to do is have the template and switch the names.

Which makes me wonder if we as fans, and I am as guilty as anybody, need to appreciate what we have.
 

diver

Well-known member
There are a lot of defensive HC's that don't need 1st round talent at every position on defense to field a good defense. Tomlin is not one.
Again, my problem is more with the arguments made.

At the end of the day, guys like Jack Lambert, L.C. Greenwood, Mel Blount, Jack Ham should have been drafted in the first round. They were first round talents. Did Noll turn them into that? That may be where we differ. Noll was a great coach, but those guys had incredible natural talent. It is just my belief that every coach needs that. I think a guy like Belechick gets his kicks out of making everyone believe he has molded these lumps of clay into great players. Bullshit. He has always had some really talented players.
 

stillwright

Well-known member
In around 2004 you would have seen many of the same complaints about Cowher on this board as you do Tomlin today. All you'd have to do is have the template and switch the names.

Which makes me wonder if we as fans, and I am as guilty as anybody, need to appreciate what we have.
If Tomlin bring us a SB in the next year or 2 all might change as it did for Cowher. I simply don't see us winning another SB in the foreseeable future with Tomlin at the helm. As I posted before. Sometimes Coaches run their course with a team. Sometimes it is best if Coach and team go their different ways. Such as Andy Reid and the Eagles. Worked out well for both of them.
 

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Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
Again, my problem is more with the arguments made.

At the end of the day, guys like Jack Lambert, L.C. Greenwood, Mel Blount, Jack Ham should have been drafted in the first round. They were first round talents. Did Noll turn them into that? That may be where we differ. Noll was a great coach, but those guys had incredible natural talent. It is just my belief that every coach needs that. I think a guy like Belechick gets his kicks out of making everyone believe he has molded these lumps of clay into great players. Bullshit. He has always had some really talented players.



diver, I hear you on these VERY talented players but beg to ask........ if they were all 1st round talent, how come so many other teams passed on them ??? Not taking anything away from the player(s) mind you but just wondering about that.

It tells me NOLL was a hell of a coach and coached players up (players have said they wanted to play their hearts out the best they can for chuck) but ALSO the fact that NOLL had the ability to spot and obtain talent to build a truly solid team.

Tomlin lacks in these traits to the point of NEEDING top tier players at every position to be top "D".




Salute the nation
 

MTC

Well-known member
Again, my problem is more with the arguments made.

At the end of the day, guys like Jack Lambert, L.C. Greenwood, Mel Blount, Jack Ham should have been drafted in the first round. They were first round talents. Did Noll turn them into that? That may be where we differ. Noll was a great coach, but those guys had incredible natural talent. It is just my belief that every coach needs that. I think a guy like Belechick gets his kicks out of making everyone believe he has molded these lumps of clay into great players. Bullshit. He has always had some really talented players.
Well these guys are all professional athletes for a reason. If you’re talented enough to make a 53 man roster it doesn’t matter whether round 1 or 6. You made it, you’re there.

It’s all mentality at that point. If you’re showing up to work and saying “I’m just a 3rd round pick” then that’s defeated imo.

I’d be going in thankful I’m playing a game for a nice pay whether it’s six figures or millions and I’m going in with the intention of leaving a legacy for the league and the fans.
 

stillwright

Well-known member
Well these guys are all professional athletes for a reason. If you’re talented enough to make a 53 man roster it doesn’t matter whether round 1 or 6. You made it, you’re there.

It’s all mentality at that point. If you’re showing up to work and saying “I’m just a 3rd round pick” then that’s defeated imo.

I’d be going in thankful I’m playing a game for a nice pay whether it’s six figures or millions and I’m going in with the intention of leaving a legacy for the league and the fans.
I think most players could give a shit about legacy for the league/fans. They are more worried about their next pay day. As would I.
 

stillwright

Well-known member
diver, I hear you on these VERY talented players but beg to ask........ if they were all 1st round talent, how come so many other teams passed on them ??? Not taking anything away from the player(s) mind you but just wondering about that.

It tells me NOLL was a hell of a coach and coached players up (players have said they wanted to play their hearts out the best they can for chuck) but ALSO the fact that NOLL had the ability to spot and obtain talent to build a truly solid team.

Tomlin lacks in these traits to the point of NEEDING top tier players at every position to be top "D".




Salute the nation
As Driver stated players like Lambert were 1st Round talent. You also have some players drafted in the first Round that simply are not first Round talent. All in hindsight of course.
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
If Tomlin bring us a SB in the next year or 2 all might change as it did for Cowher. I simply don't see us winning another SB in the foreseeable future with Tomlin at the helm. As I posted before. Sometimes Coaches run their course with a team. Sometimes it is best if Coach and team go their different ways. Such as Andy Reid and the Eagles. Worked out well for both of them.
The Tomlin Fanboys on FB are losing their shit, as the Tomlin critics (like me) appear more and more to be right.
I'm about ready to start betting real money. $100 that the Steelers never get to another SB under Coach Cool Shades (not win, just get to) and $50 that they never win another playoff game under him, period. This could be my retirement.
 

Sarge

Well-known member
I think one of the best things a coach can do is build a system around the talent he has that puts the players in that system in a position to succeed. The most recent example, in my mind, is the Baltimore Ravens. On offense, they built a system around the talent they assembled, and when it is working it is tough to stop. On defense, they have a philosophy that hasn't changed, and they draft and sign players that fit that philosophy so that success continues. I'm sure there are other examples in the NFL, the Ravens are the most familiar.

If you look at the Steelers, can you say that they have an identity, philosophy or system on offense or defense? If they do, I'm not sure I can identify any of it. It's nuts. The Steelers have some talent, there is no question, but I'm not sure that talent is regularly put in a position to succeed. Doesn't seem like it anyway.
 

MTC

Well-known member
I think most players could give a shit about legacy for the league/fans. They are more worried about their next pay day. As would I.
As they should.

However there is a fine line between bagging groceries or actually performing in the nfl as a career.


Career guys still chase the money but also carry a sense of pride. Pride/performance comes hand in hand. It’s a rewarding career to those who say and do the right things
 

ZonaBurgh

Well-known member
I think one of the best things a coach can do is build a system around the talent he has that puts the players in that system in a position to succeed. The most recent example, in my mind, is the Baltimore Ravens. On offense, they built a system around the talent they assembled, and when it is working it is tough to stop. On defense, they have a philosophy that hasn't changed, and they draft and sign players that fit that philosophy so that success continues. I'm sure there are other examples in the NFL, the Ravens are the most familiar.

If you look at the Steelers, can you say that they have an identity, philosophy or system on offense or defense? If they do, I'm not sure I can identify any of it. It's nuts. The Steelers have some talent, there is no question, but I'm not sure that talent is regularly put in a position to succeed. Doesn't seem like it anyway.
I still think this all comes down to the assistant and position coaches being given free reins to coach. While as HC, Tomlin certainly has the right to control everything, he needs to accept the fact that he doesn't know everything and let them do their jobs. Again just my opinion, but they don't seem to hire assistants that are good enough to put the players in a position to succeed.
 

SteelerinMD

Unleashing Mediocrity Since 1/22/07
Tomlin walked into 2 coordinators and then pushed them out of his buddies. He didn't want Haley, the Pittsburgh connection and Steelers feel pushed for that. His ark St buddies don't have it. His friends as position coaches don't have it. I said in another thread, Harbaugh almost lost his job and had to beg for 1 more year and agreeing to let coordinators do their jobs and coaches all coach. Harbaugh emulated the early Cowher to Tomlin years and Tomlin surrounded himself with average at best folks to make him king ding a ling. And it worked. Reminds me of Billick, he was a press guy they made a coach and Baltimore showed him the door and now he uses his big elegant words on TV and Radio. Take a hint MT, that where you belong. If not fired, please resign and go away.
 

diver

Well-known member
diver, I hear you on these VERY talented players but beg to ask........ if they were all 1st round talent, how come so many other teams passed on them ??? Not taking anything away from the player(s) mind you but just wondering about that.

It tells me NOLL was a hell of a coach and coached players up (players have said they wanted to play their hearts out the best they can for chuck) but ALSO the fact that NOLL had the ability to spot and obtain talent to build a truly solid team.

Tomlin lacks in these traits to the point of NEEDING top tier players at every position to be top "D".




Salute the nation
All I will say is that Chuck Noll himself said it was all about the players. Now, maybe he was being humble, but I will bow to his expertise in that.

Again, please do not lose sight of the fact that I want Tomlin gone. I am tired of it. But I keep it to what I see...a substandard product on the field. For me that is enough. I don't need to manufacture evidence. It is right in front of my face.
 

Drink IRON City

Contributor whining about a tag
All I will say is that Chuck Noll himself said it was all about the players. Now, maybe he was being humble, but I will bow to his expertise in that.

Again, please do not lose sight of the fact that I want Tomlin gone. I am tired of it. But I keep it to what I see...a substandard product on the field. For me that is enough. I don't need to manufacture evidence. It is right in front of my face.


I hear yaz diver, CHUCK NOLL was a legend and many things said about him and by him. I respect any and all in that matter.

You are right on the product in front of us, absolutely right. For some reason Coach Tomlin can't take that next step up that he should have taken 15 years ago.

Thanks for all your great post(s).





Salute the nation
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
I think one of the best things a coach can do is build a system around the talent he has that puts the players in that system in a position to succeed. The most recent example, in my mind, is the Baltimore Ravens. On offense, they built a system around the talent they assembled, and when it is working it is tough to stop. On defense, they have a philosophy that hasn't changed, and they draft and sign players that fit that philosophy so that success continues. I'm sure there are other examples in the NFL, the Ravens are the most familiar.

If you look at the Steelers, can you say that they have an identity, philosophy or system on offense or defense? If they do, I'm not sure I can identify any of it. It's nuts. The Steelers have some talent, there is no question, but I'm not sure that talent is regularly put in a position to succeed. Doesn't seem like it anyway.
It pains me to say this but it's time to admit that Hairball is a better coach than our coach.
 

SteelerFan448

Well-known member
I think one of the best things a coach can do is build a system around the talent he has that puts the players in that system in a position to succeed. The most recent example, in my mind, is the Baltimore Ravens. On offense, they built a system around the talent they assembled, and when it is working it is tough to stop. On defense, they have a philosophy that hasn't changed, and they draft and sign players that fit that philosophy so that success continues. I'm sure there are other examples in the NFL, the Ravens are the most familiar.

If you look at the Steelers, can you say that they have an identity, philosophy or system on offense or defense? If they do, I'm not sure I can identify any of it. It's nuts. The Steelers have some talent, there is no question, but I'm not sure that talent is regularly put in a position to succeed. Doesn't seem like it anyway.
The Steelers have never had an identity under Tomlin. The closest thing I could come for an identify is to accumulate talent and just out talent other teams. Rarely do you hear about the Steelers outscheming their opponents. We also heard the talk about wanting to be more physical on offense this year and run the ball better but they don't practice it enough. They're still soft.
 

Zack_of_Steel

Well-known member
The Steelers have never had an identity under Tomlin. The closest thing I could come for an identify is to accumulate talent and just out talent other teams. Rarely do you hear about the Steelers outscheming their opponents. We also heard the talk about wanting to be more physical on offense this year and run the ball better but they don't practice it enough. They're still soft.

This is so on the nose, imo. I know I've said it here many times, but we never out-scheme anyone. We just throw talent at the wall and hope it sticks.



With the talent this team has had we've had less playoff success in the past decade than HOU, TEN, ATL, NYG. Hell, we have only 1 more win than the Jags and the Bills, the Bills hadn't made the playoffs for almost 20 years.

Playoff wins in the past decade. Disgusting.
 

FordFairLane

Well-known member
In around 2004 you would have seen many of the same complaints about Cowher on this board as you do Tomlin today. All you'd have to do is have the template and switch the names.

Which makes me wonder if we as fans, and I am as guilty as anybody, need to appreciate what we have.
Cowhers last year he lost the fire. You could tell he was ready to retire. I don’t blame him as he found joy in life outside football. But I wish we had a coach again who has passion in his belly.
 

diver

Well-known member
Cowhers last year he lost the fire. You could tell he was ready to retire. I don’t blame him as he found joy in life outside football. But I wish we had a coach again who has passion in his belly.
Cowher was more demonstrative. It was great watching him yell "Let's go" and stuff on the sideline. It was quite the departure from Chuck Noll. Which is my point here. Just because a guy isn't demonstrative doesn't mean he doesn't have passion. It is an entirely subjective thing.

I don't know Tomlin's passion level, or if he adjusts, or his coaching tree or whatever. I don't give a shit. I know that the team isn't what we want, and it doesn't feel like they could really compete against some of the better teams in the league. That is enough for me to wish the team would go in another direction...the things I can objectively see. I don't know. I think one thing I have learned in my well over 50 years is to simplify arguments. Less to pick away at.
 

SteelerFan448

Well-known member
Cowhers last year he lost the fire. You could tell he was ready to retire. I don’t blame him as he found joy in life outside football. But I wish we had a coach again who has passion in his belly.
I don't get the feeling Tomlin isn't passionate. I get quite the opposite feeling and actually believe he loves football more than anything else. I also believe he comes off as a little cocky and too confident in his abilities. The we will win by showing up mentality because we are the Steelers. Maybe that's why we've heard guys like Schobert and Heyward talking about practice in a negative light over the past couple of years.
 

Ron Burgundy

Well-known member
Tomlin walked into 2 coordinators and then pushed them out of his buddies. He didn't want Haley, the Pittsburgh connection and Steelers feel pushed for that. His ark St buddies don't have it. His friends as position coaches don't have it. I said in another thread, Harbaugh almost lost his job and had to beg for 1 more year and agreeing to let coordinators do their jobs and coaches all coach. Harbaugh emulated the early Cowher to Tomlin years and Tomlin surrounded himself with average at best folks to make him king ding a ling. And it worked. Reminds me of Billick, he was a press guy they made a coach and Baltimore showed him the door and now he uses his big elegant words on TV and Radio. Take a hint MT, that where you belong. If not fired, please resign and go away.
I'm thinking Shades plays out his contract and moves on to TV. Like Cowher, he will find that TV pays a decent buck and is a lot less work. The longer he stays the worse his record and chance for getting in the HOF will be. I'm not sure if it's true but someone said he already has the NFL record for the most one-and-done playoff appearances for a head coach.
 

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