Good film look at CB Deonte Banks

[SteelerFan448]

The only reason PFF gets as much attention as it does is because Chris Collingsworth, who is one of the owners, was able to have the network use it during broadcasts several years ago and give it spotlight. Fortunately, the league and NFLPA is partnering with NextGen Stats now due to all the player and coach gripes.

NextGen Stats is great unless we are looking at Najee’s stats, then this metric doesn’t matter either

 

[Ike Kelly]

NextGen Stats is great unless we are looking at Najee’s stats, then this metric doesn’t matter either

That’s the thing…..you don‘t use stats for player “metrics”. You use them to quantify their measurable tendencies and/or match ups. That’s the real reason for analytics. Individual stats are for records or HOF (and not even that sometimes). If a player rushes for 5 TDs in a game but has only 3 rushing yards, does that mean he‘s a scoring machine, or a poor runner? It’s all in the context of the statistic being used.

PFF‘s observations, if they are to be true, would mean they are stealing playbooks, sitting in on game planning and listening in on the headsets during the game. Thats why they are full of Coach’s septic tank’s manure…..and probably why he subscribes to them.

 

[SteelerFan448]

That’s the thing…..you don‘t use stats for player “metrics”. You use them to quantify their measurable tendencies and/or match ups. That’s the real reason for analytics. Individual stats are for records or HOF (and not even that sometimes). If a player rushes for 5 TDs in a game but has only 3 rushing yards, does that mean he‘s a scoring machine, or a poor runner? It’s all in the context of the statistic being used.

PFF‘s observations, if they are to be true, would mean they are stealing playbooks, sitting in on game planning and listening in on the headsets during the game. Thats why they are full of Coach’s septic tank’s manure…..and probably why he subscribes to them.

It’s a comparable grading system. I don’t think it’s a final say on a player, but rather a simple comparison using a specific system of evaluation.

NGS is another advanced stat using a specific look at numbers so when I see Najee is the worst RB in a certain statistical compared to his peers, I’ll tend to value that over Steelers fan who want him to be better than he actually is.

 

[Drink IRON City]

That’s the thing…..you don‘t use stats for player “metrics”. You use them to quantify their measurable tendencies and/or match ups. That’s the real reason for analytics. Individual stats are for records or HOF (and not even that sometimes). If a player rushes for 5 TDs in a game but has only 3 rushing yards, does that mean he‘s a scoring machine, or a poor runner? It’s all in the context of the statistic being used.

PFF‘s observations, if they are to be true, would mean they are stealing playbooks, sitting in on game planning and listening in on the headsets during the game. Thats why they are full of Coach’s septic tank’s manure…..and probably why he subscribes to them.

I get your point Ike, but just wanted to comment on a certain RB of our own who had near similar stats to this.

Didn't Jerome Bettis have 3 rushing TDs on 5 carries for about 5 yards total?? Just going out of memory.


Salute the nation

 

[stillwright]

I don't think Bush busted. I think he produced a decent season then was injured. I consider busts never was never will be's.

Bush SUCKED. He is/was the definition of the word BUST!!!!

 

[MT~Forged]

That’s the thing…..you don‘t use stats for player “metrics”. You use them to quantify their measurable tendencies and/or match ups. That’s the real reason for analytics. Individual stats are for records or HOF (and not even that sometimes). If a player rushes for 5 TDs in a game but has only 3 rushing yards, does that mean he‘s a scoring machine, or a poor runner? It’s all in the context of the statistic being used.

PFF‘s observations, if they are to be true, would mean they are stealing playbooks, sitting in on game planning and listening in on the headsets during the game. Thats why they are full of Coach’s septic tank’s manure…..and probably why he subscribes to them.

Kind of like the game The Bus was 5/3/3TD’s

 

[MTC]

I don't think Bush busted. I think he produced a decent season then was injured. I consider busts never was never will be's.

Busted Bush lol

 

[Ike Kelly]

I get your point Ike, but just wanted to comment on a certain RB of our own who had near similar stats to this.

Didn't Jerome Bettis have 3 rushing TDs on 5 carries for about 5 yards total?? Just going out of memory.


Salute the nation

Kind of like the game The Bus was 5/3/3TD’s

Yeppers Drink. But it was as MT indicated. (Tip of the hat 🎩)

 

[Ike Kelly]

It’s a comparable grading system. I don’t think it’s a final say on a player, but rather a simple comparison using a specific system of evaluation.

NGS is another advanced stat using a specific look at numbers so when I see Najee is the worst RB in a certain statistical compared to his peers, I’ll tend to value that over Steelers fan who want him to be better than he actually is.

Gotta agree to disagree Fan. PFF states it uses its own PROPRIETARY method of player evaluation. As stated they opine whether a player performed their assignment on any given play from scrimmage. Something they cannot know because they are not in the game planning sessions of each team, nor in the huddle prior to each play. It’s their opinion as to what THEY think is the correct assigment of the player. Coaches and players have predominantly laughed at PFF grading system as they have no clue to the true player assignment on any given play.

Next Gen Stats is pure statistical analytics. There is no grading system, just the players statistical measurement against his technique, peers, opponents and scheme.

Good convo though.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Gotta agree to disagree Fan. PFF states it uses its own PROPRIETARY method of player evaluation. As stated they opine whether a player performed their assignment on any given play from scrimmage. Something they cannot know because they are not in the game planning sessions of each team, nor in the huddle prior to each play. It’s their opinion as to what THEY think is the correct assigment of the player. Coaches and players have predominantly laughed at PFF grading system as they have no clue to the true player assignment on any given play.

Next Gen Stats is pure statistical analytics. There is no grading system, just the players statistical measurement against his technique, peers, opponents and scheme.

Good convo though.

I look at PFF kind of like a person just watching a game, just spending more time on it. When I watch and I see that the other LBs look better than Devin Bush, then in my eyes Bush has the lowest grade. It’s a point of comparison from the same set of eyes. PFF has its flaws and isn’t the final say, just an additional way to compare players.

 

[Ike Kelly]

I look at PFF kind of like a person just watching a game, just spending more time on it. When I watch and I see that the other LBs look better than Devin Bush, then in my eyes Bush has the lowest grade. It’s a point of comparison from the same set of eyes. PFF has its flaws and isn’t the final say, just an additional way to compare players.

Yeah…well, I definitely don’t agree that PFF is “just a person” watching a game. They are multiple individuals using their opinion as a grading measurement. A for profit establishment to generate fan response.

Actually, I think using Bush for an example is the worst kind. He performed like the player they selected first in 2019 and the first few games in 2020 until he had the year ending ACL. As a young player who had never been injured like that, being hesitant upon coming back for 2021 would be expected, and gaining his confidence back on that knee was part of the curve. But remember he comes from a NFL first round father, and was preconditioned to “protect himself to his next contract”, and didn’t pursue aggressively enough at which PIT didn‘t exercise his 5th year option (rightly so). He then continued his cautious play through the 2022 season and checked out the last three games. It will be interesting to see if he is aggressive in SEA on his prove it deal.

A more true example for player measurement would be someone not coming back from a serious injury, rather a true eval of three/four years (whatever the contract is) in comparison to his peers and opponents. Say Terrell Edmunds. In the years he’s been at PIT he’s be amazingly consistent, albeit less so with turnovers. But he doesn’t have to be All-Pro when Minkah is next to him. Just like RC was to Troy. RC was that way to Sean Taylor too in WAS. A D Coord expects consistency, it is the glue to the scheme. That and communication.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Yeah…well, I definitely don’t agree that PFF is “just a person” watching a game. They are multiple individuals using their opinion as a grading measurement. A for profit establishment to generate fan response.

Actually, I think using Bush for an example is the worst kind. He performed like the player they selected first in 2019 and the first few games in 2020 until he had the year ending ACL. As a young player who had never been injured like that, being hesitant upon coming back for 2021 would be expected, and gaining his confidence back on that knee was part of the curve. But remember he comes from a NFL first round father, and was preconditioned to “protect himself to his next contract”, and didn’t pursue aggressively enough at which PIT didn‘t exercise his 5th year option (rightly so). He then continued his cautious play through the 2022 season and checked out the last three games. It will be interesting to see if he is aggressive in SEA on his prove it deal.

A more true example for player measurement would be someone not coming back from a serious injury, rather a true eval of three/four years (whatever the contract is) in comparison to his peers and opponents. Say Terrell Edmunds. In the years he’s been at PIT he’s be amazingly consistent, albeit less so with turnovers. But he doesn’t have to be All-Pro when Minkah is next to him. Just like RC was to Troy. RC was that way to Sean Taylor too in WAS. A D Coord expects consistency, it is the glue to the scheme. That and communication.

I think we are just going to flat out disagree on this one. I don't care the reason Devin Bush didn't perform, he just wasn't a good player out on the field. To me, PFF is also comparable to all the independent draft analysts who watch game tape and evaluate prospects. They have things they look for and give a comparison among position groups to develop rankings. PFF is just another tool/resource to do the same. In the end, all the analysts out there are trying to do a job and make money and the consumer can use that information as they want.

 

[Ike Kelly]

I think we are just going to flat out disagree on this one. I don't care the reason Devin Bush didn't perform, he just wasn't a good player out on the field. To me, PFF is also comparable to all the independent draft analysts who watch game tape and evaluate prospects. They have things they look for and give a comparison among position groups to develop rankings. PFF is just another tool/resource to do the same. In the end, all the analysts out there are trying to do a job and make money and the consumer can use that information as they want.

That’s perfectly fine to have your personal opinion about Bush. He was underwhelming after his injury. A disappointment. I was actually at that draft in Nashville and it was 100% excitement on the trade up, and 60/40 on the pick itself at the Hotel lobby. I knew he wasn’t going to be another Shazier, but thought he would have as much impact as an off ball LB as Timmons did.

I laughably wouldn’t even consider PFF on even close to on par in evaluation rationale compared to actual independent/media player evaluators, i.e. Daniel Jeremiah, Charles Davis, Mayock, even Kiper in the 80’s and 90’s. They watch game tape, and break down each rep by technique against the player against them. PFF assessment includes reviewing game tape, but also acknowledges they determine if the player‘s performance matches the assignment goal for each rep. No other “independent draft analyst” does or would even try to make that comment as they know it’s a ridiculous statement.

Again, nice debate/conversation regarding this as PFF has been a lightning rod in player evals for years. Some PFFs “evaluators” are known to not treat players equal, due to favoritism pertaining to professional/college/HS history. In other words some of those folks at PFF are fans first and objective evaluators second.

 

[slashsteel]

That’s perfectly fine to have your personal opinion about Bush. He was underwhelming after his injury. A disappointment. I was actually at that draft in Nashville and it was 100% excitement on the trade up, and 60/40 on the pick itself at the Hotel lobby. I knew he wasn’t going to be another Shazier, but thought he would have as much impact as an off ball LB as Timmons did.

I laughably wouldn’t even consider PFF on even close to on par in evaluation rationale compared to actual independent/media player evaluators, i.e. Daniel Jeremiah, Charles Davis, Mayock, even Kiper in the 80’s and 90’s. They watch game tape, and break down each rep by technique against the player against them. PFF assessment includes reviewing game tape, but also acknowledges they determine if the player‘s performance matches the assignment goal for each rep. No other “independent draft analyst” does or would even try to make that comment as they know it’s a ridiculous statement.

Again, nice debate/conversation regarding this as PFF has been a lightning rod in player evals for years. Some PFFs “evaluators” are known to not treat players equal, due to favoritism pertaining to professional/college/HS history. In other words some of those folks at PFF are fans first and objective evaluators second.

I never heard this. Not that it is or isn't true. Interesting debate. 😉