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Sean Payton to retire

Tom Lynn-Zadeusch

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The right time and he is willingly stepping down. He has run his course and realizes it. CLASS ACT
Speaking of running his course, any updates from our leader as to whether he plans to go with Rudolph or Haskins and which mediocre, internal coordinator he intends to promote to DC this year? Oh .. and that Canada offense. Yeah. That should be something.
 

diver

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I will admit, after watching this weekend, I am actually weakening on my resolve to see Tomlin go. First of all, I don't take it personally. I don't think Tomlin loses or makes bad decisions just to piss me off. Some of you would be a lot happier if you figured this out.

But look at some of the coaching this weekend. How the hell did the Bills lose that game? And I have heard McDermott suggested as an example of a guy to replace Tomlin. Early in the Bucs game especially, the team was acting like a bunch of jackasses, Suh took a 15 yarder...Brady with his outburst. Probably directly contributed to the loss. Arians lacked control of his team, something Tomlin has been accused of. The brilliant McVay and his squad almost blew it. The guy in Green Bay is wasting Rogers, apparently, if the same rules apply as here. The Belechick prodigy loses in the playoffs again.
 

diver

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What I'm saying is I think too many, just by the over the top reactions to Tomlin, think a new coach will be a panacea...everything will be so much better. Maybe it won't be.

At this point I think I am willing to take that risk, but there is a risk. Don't fool yourselves.
 

Tom Lynn-Zadeusch

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What I'm saying is I think too many, just by the over the top reactions to Tomlin, think a new coach will be a panacea...everything will be so much better. Maybe it won't be.

At this point I think I am willing to take that risk, but there is a risk. Don't fool yourselves.

You're right. It could be risky. We could potentially end up with a coach who isn't overly intelligent, lacks strategy, is unable to make adjustments, is ineffective when it comes to drafting or developing players, can't maintain control over the locker room, and on the rare occasions that we do make the playoffs, he might contribute to getting us bounced in the first round. Oh wait ..
 

diver

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You're right. It could be risky. We could potentially end up with a coach who isn't overly intelligent, lacks strategy, is unable to make adjustments, is ineffective when it comes to drafting or developing players, can't maintain control over the locker room, and on the rare occasions that we do make the playoffs, he might contribute to getting us bounced in the first round. Oh wait ..
I know I am. You could get an Adam Gase. Or Matt Nagy. You could get them instead of the great coach, whoever that is, that you all seem to be so sure would replace Tomlin.

Again, I clearly said I still think it is worth the risk. But keep some perspoective.
 

Tom Lynn-Zadeusch

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I know I am. You could get an Adam Gase. Or Matt Nagy. You could get them instead of the great coach, whoever that is, that you all seem to be so sure would replace Tomlin.

Again, I clearly said I still think it is worth the risk. But keep some perspoective.

Perspective? I guess the problem is I don't get your perspective. So because we have an individual that has PROVEN himself to be ineffective in his job, we should think twice about getting rid of him because we might get someone who sucks even harder?

How about we just roll the dice anyway and fire that person too if they perform like Adam Gase? You know .. just like every other franchise in the NFL does that aren't named the Pittsburgh Steelers.
 

diver

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Perspective? I guess the problem is I don't get your perspective. So because we have an individual that has PROVEN himself to be ineffective in his job, we should think twice about getting rid of him because we might get someone who sucks even harder?

How about we just roll the dice anyway and fire that person too if they perform like Adam Gase? You know .. just like every other franchise in the NFL does that aren't named the Pittsburgh Steelers.
He has not at all proven to be ineffective. That's bullshit. He has been very effective in keeping them competitive and in the hunt. He isn't winning championships, which is the standard around here. The standard is more than just effective.

So the guy they would hire to replace better be more then effective. He'd better win championships.

Yep. That is a great answer. Let's be like every other franchise.
 

Tom Lynn-Zadeusch

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He has not at all proven to be ineffective. That's bullshit. He has been very effective in keeping them competitive and in the hunt. He isn't winning championships, which is the standard around here. The standard is more than just effective.

So the guy they would hire to replace better be more then effective. He'd better win championships.

Yep. That is a great answer. Let's be like every other franchise.

Is it bullshit? Has he been effective? OR, has he been lucky that he was able to reap the benefit of a HOF QB his entire career? That SB title was literally handed to him by Cowher and the team that Cowher built. They were nice enough to take his useless back-side along for the ride.

And should we recognize him for keeping us "in the hunt"? Look at how many other NFL coaches have had their teams "in the hunt" and lost their job for not getting any farther. Tomlin is a total albatross to this organization and has been his entire career. It's time for Rooney to cut the cord and bring some sense of pride back to being a Steelers fan.
 

diver

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Is it bullshit? Has he been effective? OR, has he been lucky that he was able to reap the benefit of a HOF QB his entire career? That SB title was literally handed to him by Cowher and the team that Cowher built. They were nice enough to take his useless back-side along for the ride.

And should we recognize him for keeping us "in the hunt"? Look at how many other NFL coaches have had their teams "in the hunt" and lost their job for not getting any farther. Tomlin is a total albatross to this organization and has been his entire career. It's time for Rooney to cut the cord and bring some sense of pride back to being a Steelers fan.
Yes, he has been effective. That is different than winning championships. But he has effectively kept them competitive and in the hunt year after year. That is just a fact. We want championships here, though. And again, he was the coach of a team that two years prior to '08 went 8-8 with Cowher. It is, was and always will be a lousy argument. It takes no thought, because it is unprovable one way or the other. So it is easy for idiots to make. Would have they won again with Cowher at the helm? Maybe, but you don't know that. I know they won with Tomlin. Stop with the childish ****.

This thread started about Payton. Not so much in this thread, but in other places I have read guys pining for Payton to come to Pittsburgh. Payton? How is his career any different than Tomlin's when you look at results? But somehow he is a choice for provably better? How?

I never said recognize him for keeping them in the hunt. You used the word ineffective. The opposite of that is effective. You set the language. He has been effective. You are full of **** on that. It is not about effective. It is about winning championships. If you just want effective, they have that. But you want more than that, which is fine. So do I. But you better find a coach who is going to bring championships. Well, you'll say, nobody can guarantee that. And that's right. So maybe you better just hold on tight to effective and hope it catches fire here and again and you win something.
 

Tom Lynn-Zadeusch

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Yes, he has been effective. That is different than winning championships. But he has effectively kept them competitive and in the hunt year after year. That is just a fact. We want championships here, though. And again, he was the coach of a team that two years prior to '08 went 8-8 with Cowher. It is, was and always will be a lousy argument. It takes no thought, because it is unprovable one way or the other. So it is easy for idiots to make. Would have they won again with Cowher at the helm? Maybe, but you don't know that. I know they won with Tomlin. Stop with the childish ****.

This thread started about Payton. Not so much in this thread, but in other places I have read guys pining for Payton to come to Pittsburgh. Payton? How is his career any different than Tomlin's when you look at results? But somehow he is a choice for provably better? How?

I never said recognize him for keeping them in the hunt. You used the word ineffective. The opposite of that is effective. You set the language. He has been effective. You are full of **** on that. It is not about effective. It is about winning championships. If you just want effective, they have that. But you want more than that, which is fine. So do I. But you better find a coach who is going to bring championships. Well, you'll say, nobody can guarantee that. And that's right. So maybe you better just hold on tight to effective and hope it catches fire here and again and you win something.
Tomlin was present for the SB. They didn't win the SB because of Tomlin. And there won't be anything catching fire here because the players and coordinators that masked his deficiencies and incompetence are now gone. Good luck with dopey, Canada's offense, and one of our should be 3rd stringers throwing the ball next season. Unfortunately, after the 2022 season, you won't be able to use "in the hunt" and Tomlin in the same sentence.
 

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Tomlin was present for the SB. They didn't win the SB because of Tomlin. And there won't be anything catching fire here because the players and coordinators that masked his deficiencies and incompetence are now gone. Good luck with dopey, Canada's offense, and one of our should be 3rd stringers throwing the ball next season. Unfortunately, after the 2022 season, you won't be able to use "in the hunt" and Tomlin in the same sentence.
Nowhere did I ever say the team won BECAUSE of Tomlin. Teams win because the players play well. He was the coach when they won because those players played well. He deserves the credit for being the coach when they won. It really isn't that complex.

As for 2022, we'll see. Perhaps you will be right. That is speculation at this point. You continue to operate in a world of speculation and unprovable things. I try not to, which I think is why we will not come too much agreement. But that is what is fun about this. Welcome to the board.
 

tapeANaspirin2it

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Tomlin was effective when he had a loaded team with a young franchise QB and team leaders like Polamalu, Farrior, Pouncey, etc. Plus he had veteran coaches like Lebeau and Arians on staff to basically coach the team for him. The Steelers knew Tomlin was not ready to be HC when they hired him so they insisted on him retaining the veteran staff, essentially providing him training wheels.

Once the training wheels came off, and Tomlin got more control, it went downhill. They are now routinely outcoached. The early game struggles are laughable. Week after week they seem almost surprised by what the opponent is doing.

Tomlin's expertise is allegedly DBs and his draft picks are terrible. The only good DBs are free agents or trades. What DB that he drafted has been any good? Edmunds? Sutton? Both are merely average after years of development.

I think the problem is that in general the coaching in the NFL is getting worse. Years ago when you looked at sidelines, you saw a HC that had decades of experience. Same for the OC and DC. Now you have owners trying to find that young genius coach and that coach hires other young inexperienced coaches. They only have experience in 1 system and can't coach outside of that.

That leads to a situation where I don't believe in Tomlin while at the same time, he is probably a top 10 coach in the NFL, maybe even top 5. That is how thin the ranks have become.

I would trade Tomlin for Brian Flores. That's a guy not willing to settle for good enough. He could have stayed in Miami and won 9 games per year with Tua but he said he's not good enough. Didn't sugar coat it and got the hell out of there. He's also a football coach and not some stat nerd or a self proclaimed genius playcaller. That's what i want a football coach that wants to win and will not hesitate to cut any player to get there.
 

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Speaking of running his course, any updates from our leader as to whether he plans to go with Rudolph or Haskins and which mediocre, internal coordinator he intends to promote to DC this year? Oh .. and that Canada offense. Yeah. That should be something.
You’ve run your course with this new identity Bob. Time for timeout from Coolie or Lunar. If your stepping Slash has first dibs already.
 

slashsteel

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You’ve run your course with this new identity Bob. Time for timeout from Coolie or Lunar. If your stepping Slash has first dibs already.
Backdoor Butternut-ZaBobBeatch gets more obvious after each reincarnation. If he really wants to get a chuckle he should come back with some version of the names we tag him with. He won't bring much humor beyond that. But at least there will be that.
 

Ike Kelly

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Backdoor Butternut-ZaBobBeatch gets more obvious after each reincarnation. If he really wants to get a chuckle he should come back with some version of the names we tag him with. He won't bring much humor beyond that. But at least there will be that.
Doubt he’s smart enough to do that.
 

diver

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Tomlin was effective when he had a loaded team with a young franchise QB and team leaders like Polamalu, Farrior, Pouncey, etc. Plus he had veteran coaches like Lebeau and Arians on staff to basically coach the team for him. The Steelers knew Tomlin was not ready to be HC when they hired him so they insisted on him retaining the veteran staff, essentially providing him training wheels.

Once the training wheels came off, and Tomlin got more control, it went downhill. They are now routinely outcoached. The early game struggles are laughable. Week after week they seem almost surprised by what the opponent is doing.

Tomlin's expertise is allegedly DBs and his draft picks are terrible. The only good DBs are free agents or trades. What DB that he drafted has been any good? Edmunds? Sutton? Both are merely average after years of development.

I think the problem is that in general the coaching in the NFL is getting worse. Years ago when you looked at sidelines, you saw a HC that had decades of experience. Same for the OC and DC. Now you have owners trying to find that young genius coach and that coach hires other young inexperienced coaches. They only have experience in 1 system and can't coach outside of that.

That leads to a situation where I don't believe in Tomlin while at the same time, he is probably a top 10 coach in the NFL, maybe even top 5. That is how thin the ranks have become.

I would trade Tomlin for Brian Flores. That's a guy not willing to settle for good enough. He could have stayed in Miami and won 9 games per year with Tua but he said he's not good enough. Didn't sugar coat it and got the hell out of there. He's also a football coach and not some stat nerd or a self proclaimed genius playcaller. That's what i want a football coach that wants to win and will not hesitate to cut any player to get there.
I'm not trying to be an ***, but I think this is important. Language matters. Tomlin has been effective throughout his career. The end results are he keeps the team competitive and in the hunt. We all want more than effective. If they replace Tomlin and we get more effective, here we will be, grumbling. Maybe about different stuff, but grumbling nonetheless.

I agree with your assessment of NFL coaches. I have often wondered if Belechick is that good or the guys he is going against are just very average. Which is what worries me a bit with replacing Tomlin. With the current state of coaches out there, what might they be getting? I do like Flores, too, and would be fine taking a chance with him.
 

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I'm not trying to be an ***, but I think this is important. Language matters. Tomlin has been effective throughout his career. The end results are he keeps the team competitive and in the hunt. We all want more than effective. If they replace Tomlin and we get more effective, here we will be, grumbling. Maybe about different stuff, but grumbling nonetheless.

I agree with your assessment of NFL coaches. I have often wondered if Belechick is that good or the guys he is going against are just very average. Which is what worries me a bit with replacing Tomlin. With the current state of coaches out there, what might they be getting? I do like Flores, too, and would be fine taking a chance with him.
Remove Belichick’s record from 2002 - 2007 (Spygate), through 2013 (Injury Report falsification) to 2015 (Deflategate and Headset snafu) and Spygate 2 in 2020 with the Bengals, you wonder how many times he tried to win without some form of rules circumvention. He wasn’t as successful in CLE. So it makes you wonder.
 

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Remove Belichick’s record from 2002 - 2007 (Spygate), through 2013 (Injury Report falsification) to 2015 (Deflategate and Headset snafu) and Spygate 2 in 2020 with the Bengals, you wonder how many times he tried to win without some form of rules circumvention. He wasn’t as successful in CLE. So it makes you wonder.
You know, at some point other teams gotta quit bitching about what he does and do something back to him. Take it as a given and be proactive. Turn off the hot water in the showers in the visitors locker room. Make sure that for some reason a fireworks display goes off at 4am outside their hotel room. I don't know. Get creative.

One of my favorite '70s Steelers stories is the AFCC game against the Raiders in '75. The Raiders were well known for deflating footballs, or growing the grass high for fast teams, or greasing their uniforms and ****. Writing profanities on the balls. So instead of wah, wahing about it, somehow the tarp the Steelers put on the field before that game "ripped" causing the sidelines to freeze. The Raiders were a big sideline route team. Oh did Davis whine. He was still whining about it 25 years later.

That's how you handle that ****. Now I know we live in a different world, everything is sanitized, the NFL wouldn't like that. Another reason the game seemed so much more fun back then.
 

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You know, at some point other teams gotta quit bitching about what he does and do something back to him. Take it as a given and be proactive. Turn off the hot water in the showers in the visitors locker room. Make sure that for some reason a fireworks display goes off at 4am outside their hotel room. I don't know. Get creative.

One of my favorite '70s Steelers stories is the AFCC game against the Raiders in '75. The Raiders were well known for deflating footballs, or growing the grass high for fast teams, or greasing their uniforms and ****. Writing profanities on the balls. So instead of wah, wahing about it, somehow the tarp the Steelers put on the field before that game "ripped" causing the sidelines to freeze. The Raiders were a big sideline route team. Oh did Davis whine. He was still whining about it 25 years later.

That's how you handle that ****. Now I know we live in a different world, everything is sanitized, the NFL wouldn't like that. Another reason the game seemed so much more fun back then.
LOL….I remember that game… AFC Championship in January 76. The tarp tore in the middle the night before and the heating units didn’t reach the sidelines/back endzones. Both teams suffered. My uncle told me it was so friggin cold that day and none of the WRs were getting anywhere outside the numbers. as it was a virtual ice sheet. Both teams were trying to compensate by throwing inside and in crossing patterns. From what I can remember didn’t Swann get almost decapitated that game too. He almost didn’t make the SB. Played with a concussion.

OAK used to all kind of stuff. Slowing down the grass becaise they had those big backs, VanEghan and Hubbard(?). Biletnikoff slathering Stickum all over his socks and impacting the centers and QBs handle on the ball. Even when they were sharing the stadium with the A’s they would leave pebbles in the infield dirt to scape up players who didn’t wear long sleeves or pads on their elbows or hands. Boy I miss those types of rivalries.
 

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You know, at some point other teams gotta quit bitching about what he does and do something back to him. Take it as a given and be proactive. Turn off the hot water in the showers in the visitors locker room. Make sure that for some reason a fireworks display goes off at 4am outside their hotel room. I don't know. Get creative.

One of my favorite '70s Steelers stories is the AFCC game against the Raiders in '75. The Raiders were well known for deflating footballs, or growing the grass high for fast teams, or greasing their uniforms and ****. Writing profanities on the balls. So instead of wah, wahing about it, somehow the tarp the Steelers put on the field before that game "ripped" causing the sidelines to freeze. The Raiders were a big sideline route team. Oh did Davis whine. He was still whining about it 25 years later.

That's how you handle that ****. Now I know we live in a different world, everything is sanitized, the NFL wouldn't like that. Another reason the game seemed so much more fun back then.
Is any of that necessary now? They have came back to earth lady left and Ernie Adams retired. I think Bill is just what he always was a good coach who had a good QB made great by cheating. Now he is back to being good again. He will ride that out to retirement. I have two dinners planned one when bill-acheat retires and one when lady retires. As far as the Steelers they are all only held back now by the Steelers and their repetitive bad decisions. Buckle in a bumpy ride ahead.
 

diver

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LOL….I remember that game… AFC Championship in January 76. The tarp tore in the middle the night before and the heating units didn’t reach the sidelines/back endzones. Both teams suffered. My uncle told me it was so friggin cold that day and none of the WRs were getting anywhere outside the numbers. as it was a virtual ice sheet. Both teams were trying to compensate by throwing inside and in crossing patterns. From what I can remember didn’t Swann get almost decapitated that game too. He almost didn’t make the SB. Played with a concussion.

OAK used to all kind of stuff. Slowing down the grass becaise they had those big backs, VanEghan and Hubbard(?). Biletnikoff slathering Stickum all over his socks and impacting the centers and QBs handle on the ball. Even when they were sharing the stadium with the A’s they would leave pebbles in the infield dirt to scape up players who didn’t wear long sleeves or pads on their elbows or hands. Boy I miss those types of rivalries.
Yep. Rozelle said to Davis it's the same for both teams, which pissed Davis off. He said Rozelle didn't know what he was talking about, the Raiders are a sideline team and blah, blah. Haha. **** 'em. I still hate the Raiders.

I got to know a retired guy a number of years ago who was in sales. This guy knew Phil Villapiano real well. Played golf with him up here in PA. Both of them were/are Jersey guys. Anyway, I would say how I hate the Raiders and all that. Wouldn't you know it, one day the guy hands me an envelope, and it's a signed picture from Villapiano. The son of a gun put on there the "just win baby." I enjoyed that, even though he was a Raider.
 

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I hate this argument with a passion. Cowher went 8-8 with those guys the year before. Tomlin was the coach in '08 and should get full credit with no asterisks attached.

I'm shooting clay birds. I borrow a guys over under and shoot a 25 with it. According to this stupid *** logic, the guy I borrowed the shotgun from should get the patch.
You are comparing an inanimate object to a group of people. This is more like you walked into a successful business and while all the staff was there it continued its success. But you wanted to put your stamp on it so you brought in your people. And while the business is still successful it has not reached the heights it had when you took over.
I think the underestimated part of this was the assistant coaches and coordinators. When Tomlin arrived he was young and that was a great coaching staff with some holdover from Cowher. Those people did their job and Tomlin was a fresh face at his role. I think they have had as talented teams since. They have struggled with coaches and coordinators. Badly.
 

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You are comparing an inanimate object to a group of people. This is more like you walked into a successful business and while all the staff was there it continued its success. But you wanted to put your stamp on it so you brought in your people. And while the business is still successful it has not reached the heights it had when you took over.
I think the underestimated part of this was the assistant coaches and coordinators. When Tomlin arrived he was young and that was a great coaching staff with some holdover from Cowher. Those people did their job and Tomlin was a fresh face at his role. I think they have had as talented teams since. They have struggled with coaches and coordinators. Badly.
I'm not underestimating anything. I keep it simple. Tomlin was the coach when they won it in '08 pure and simple. He deserves credit for that with nothing attached to it.

I've always wanted to ask the purveyors of this argument...would you rather he lost?

If not, shut the hell up on it and move on to another argument. It is stupid and it makes the people who make the argument look silly. And like I have been saying, takes away from the real reasons Tomlin should be shown the door.
 

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A theme of what I keep trying to say is be careful in the arguments to get rid of Tomlin you don't get off in the weeds. The legitimate reasons as to why Tomlin should be fired get choked out if you are off in the weeds with some really unprovable argument.

An example I think of is right now with vaccines. I question the idea that vaccines work, but I question it using facts of what I see...people with multiple jabs getting sick and so on. But then someone comes by and says they don't like the vaccine because somebody's sister's aunt got the shot and a magnet stuck to their arm. Or the government is secretly putting tracking devices in everybody when they get the shot or whatever the kooky conspiracy theory is next. So the legitimate questions get lost in the crazy, and the legitimate questioners get lumped in with the crazy.
 

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I'm not underestimating anything. I keep it simple. Tomlin was the coach when they won it in '08 pure and simple. He deserves credit for that with nothing attached to it.

I've always wanted to ask the purveyors of this argument...would you rather he lost?

If not, shut the hell up on it and move on to another argument. It is stupid and it makes the people who make the argument look silly. And like I have been saying, takes away from the real reasons Tomlin should be shown the door.
He won a SB. He is in very select company there is no denying that but after damn near 15 years that and a ham sandwich will get you **** all. And if you feel like he is somehow close to another I have some magic beans for sale on Amazon.
 
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