Tomlin and LeBeau - and the future.

[FSF]

For years I have defended Mike Tomlin vs. his detractors. I mean he did direct 2 teams to Super Bowl - and I still say that the rules changes which were on high alert had a difference in that 2010 Super Bowl. The Secondary wasn't great at coverage but by beating up WRs. It's why the 2008 Steelers were so dominant. However, the combo of Colbert and Tomlin is obviously not the level of Colbert and Cowher. I blame both for the horrible drafting since 2007 and the plateauing of Wallace and Woodley, as well as the underachievement of Mendenhall. Cowher had a knack of getting the best out of his guys; Tomlin hasn't. I am not big on firing him - but he needs to illustrate an ability to get more out of his guys or he'll be the first Steelers coach fired since 1968.

LeBeau: IMO LeBeau is a perfect example of the difference between success and not success: it's a finer and thinner line than most realize. He did get a chance to be a Head Coach - in fact he really built the core of the 2005 Bengals. But it was the Bengals! Put Bill Walsh with the Cardinals and it's failure plain and simple. If LeBeau had a chance with a great management he'd have been a HOF Coach - all he needed was a real chance but never got it. His run with Steelers is maybe 2nd only to Noll - every Super Bowl run has seen him run the defense. But I wonder if the rules changes are making his scheme obsolete. It's obvious Belichick knows it inside and out - cheating probably helped but it's irrelevant. I love LeBeau - but there are some sad truths that are unavoidable: and one of them is that ALL GOOD THINGS MUST END. The game passed Noll by - he knew it himself as he still tried to play 70s football in a league that had obviously opened to the pass. The Joe Walton debacle proved his NFL was gone. It may be the same for LeBeau.

 

[Spike]

The future is NOW

Wildcard or bust!

 

[Litos]

Valar Morghulis!

 

[Wingman]

I do not know that the nfl has passed him by, but it may have passed by what he has had to work with. There is a saying that you can not make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Because of the drafts we have had over the last few years, and some injuries Lebeau has had a poor group of people to work with. Harrison was gone or injured, Woodley was injured, Foot injured and gone, Farrior gone, Aaron Smith injured and gone, Casey Hampton gone, The list goes on. With what has been available to him it is hard to do anything unless you can scheme 13 men on the field. The new guys have not exactly set the world on fire either and several of them have been hurt as well. Now if you look to the other side of the ball you find an offense that has to put it kindly not been ringing up the score board or keeping the ball for a long time.

When the team reloads with talent and the offense begins contributing a bit more than it has been the defense will be the devastating unit it used to be. Lebeau is one of the true masters of defense and we are lucky to have him. He is also likely to have a major impact in developing the position coaches we have on the team now. Things will be ok Mikey is just about ready to unleash something in July.

 

[Vader]

For years I have defended Mike Tomlin vs. his detractors. I mean he did direct 2 teams to Super Bowl - and I still say that the rules changes which were on high alert had a difference in that 2010 Super Bowl. The Secondary wasn't great at coverage but by beating up WRs. It's why the 2008 Steelers were so dominant. However, the combo of Colbert and Tomlin is obviously not the level of Colbert and Cowher. I blame both for the horrible drafting since 2007 and the plateauing of Wallace and Woodley, as well as the underachievement of Mendenhall. Cowher had a knack of getting the best out of his guys; Tomlin hasn't. I am not big on firing him - but he needs to illustrate an ability to get more out of his guys or he'll be the first Steelers coach fired since 1968.

LeBeau: IMO LeBeau is a perfect example of the difference between success and not success: it's a finer and thinner line than most realize. He did get a chance to be a Head Coach - in fact he really built the core of the 2005 Bengals. But it was the Bengals! Put Bill Walsh with the Cardinals and it's failure plain and simple. If LeBeau had a chance with a great management he'd have been a HOF Coach - all he needed was a real chance but never got it. His run with Steelers is maybe 2nd only to Noll - every Super Bowl run has seen him run the defense. But I wonder if the rules changes are making his scheme obsolete. It's obvious Belichick knows it inside and out - cheating probably helped but it's irrelevant. I love LeBeau - but there are some sad truths that are unavoidable: and one of them is that ALL GOOD THINGS MUST END. The game passed Noll by - he knew it himself as he still tried to play 70s football in a league that had obviously opened to the pass. The Joe Walton debacle proved his NFL was gone. It may be the same for LeBeau.

It looks like you found the problem to the 2nd paragraph in the 1st but didn't recognize it.

 

[deljzc]

I'm on record as saying this is the off-season I would have fired Kevin Colbert and shaken up and modernized the front office, it's power, the scouting staff and how we evaluate talent.

I would have limited Tomlin's input on the draft as the new GM made his mark.

There was an opportunity after some poor drafts and back-to-back underachieving seasons to validate a change at GM after 13 years. Sometimes the same thing year after year isn't always the best thing. Colbert does some things well. The team has scouted some positions (CB, WR) probably better than at any point in it's history. That said, I see a real disconnect in some of the draft/talent philosophies. I see some frivolous picks. I see a lack of appreciation of the value and scarcity of resources. I hear some double talk and lack of vision. I would hope a new GM could have streamlined and improved some of those things.

I think the Rooney's have taken a vastly different direction. They have given Tomlin even more say-so in the draft room. They are taking a full plunge of support behind Tomlin and hoping that if he has even MORE say in his roster, he can improve the performance of the team. This draft has a lot of "help now" written on it. If Tomlin's job performance is on the line I can see his reasoning behind Shazier, Tuitt and Archer. Guys that look to get significant snaps and/or touches (mostly special teams, but Tomlin believes strongly in that).

This is a draft that will either be talked about as a Tomlin "last gasp" or as a defining moment in his possible long tenure as head coach. If Tomlin is successful with this draft, I think it will strengthen his resolve in the draft room. Colbert will comfortably settle back into his follower/supportive roll and we will have a legit new sheriff in town with all the power and authority as a Noll or Cowher ever had.

If this draft underachieves, I am sure it will go hand and hand with further underachievement of the team. In that case, we very well could be looking at a couple more seasons of this pairing.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I think Tomlin for better or worse has been victim to unrealistic expectations from fans about the performance of the team. Like it or not, this has been a team in transition since XLV. Sapp, while he may have been a year off, was absolutely right about the state of the team - it was too old and slow to compete and wouldn't see the playoffs in its then current state.

Keeping that in mind, the one thing I blame Tombert for was thinking that a few patches here and there would be enough to keep the good times rolling. Foote was not an answer. I love Ike, but keeping him over Lewis was not an answer.

I am gladdened to see that Tombert have finally acknowledged throughout last season and into draft season that it's time to move on. Cut the dead flesh away for good and commit to your vision.

Getting after Lebeau is just silly. This team clearly lacks talent on defense. Lebeau has been the best DC in football for the past 10+ years, you don't just lose your skill.

 

[CorpusDsteelers]

Dick got what he wanted! He's a smart mofro. I'm 100% behind this draft!! Shanzer I called it before the crash as did a few others

 

[FSF]

Not even close.

Since the flag football league began in 2010 - we began to lose our advantage of being physical defense. It was only way to combat teams spreading us out. Think how much impact Jordy Nelson had in SB 45 if Ryan Clark lays him out like Wes Welker - or many of other hits the 2008 team made. I just wonder if this flag football league can be defended without top DBs

 

[Stryker]

Welcome to the dark side! -Vader

 

[steelermania]

LeBeau: IMO LeBeau is a perfect example of the difference between success and not success: it's a finer and thinner line than most realize. He did get a chance to be a Head Coach - in fact he really built the core of the 2005 Bengals. But it was the Bengals! Put Bill Walsh with the Cardinals and it's failure plain and simple. If LeBeau had a chance with a great management he'd have been a HOF Coach - all he needed was a real chance but never got it.

LeBeau failed with the Bengals, but it's Mike Browns fault (I don't necessarily disagree with this). Yet Marvin Lewis, who is the only coach who has had any success with that team since Paul Brown died, is constantly derided as a horrible coach on this board. Both cannot be true. Either DL was a bad head coach, or Lewis has done as well as can be expected in a horrible situation.

 

[steel shinin]

Where to start?

For years I have defended Mike Tomlin vs. his detractors. I mean he did direct 2 teams to Super Bowl - and I still say that the rules changes which were on high alert had a difference in that 2010 Super Bowl. The Secondary wasn't great at coverage but by beating up WRs. It's why the 2008 Steelers were so dominant. However, the combo of Colbert and Tomlin is obviously not the level of Colbert and Cowher. I blame both for the horrible drafting since 2007 and the plateauing of Wallace and Woodley, as well as the underachievement of Mendenhall. Cowher had a knack of getting the best out of his guys; Tomlin hasn't. I am not big on firing him - but he needs to illustrate an ability to get more out of his guys or he'll be the first Steelers coach fired since 1968.

LeBeau: IMO LeBeau is a perfect example of the difference between success and not success: it's a finer and thinner line than most realize. He did get a chance to be a Head Coach - in fact he really built the core of the 2005 Bengals. But it was the Bengals! Put Bill Walsh with the Cardinals and it's failure plain and simple. If LeBeau had a chance with a great management he'd have been a HOF Coach - all he needed was a real chance but never got it. His run with Steelers is maybe 2nd only to Noll - every Super Bowl run has seen him run the defense. But I wonder if the rules changes are making his scheme obsolete. It's obvious Belichick knows it inside and out - cheating probably helped but it's irrelevant. I love LeBeau - but there are some sad truths that are unavoidable: and one of them is that ALL GOOD THINGS MUST END. The game passed Noll by - he knew it himself as he still tried to play 70s football in a league that had obviously opened to the pass. The Joe Walton debacle proved his NFL was gone. It may be the same for LeBeau.

Mike Tomlin has not done even close to a bad enough job to be fired, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. The standard is high in Pittsburgh for sure, but he has taken his team to two Super Bowls and won one as you alluded to. As far as player drafting and development goes, I don't think Tomlin has done as bad of a job as a lot of people think either. As far as Cowher and Tomlin go as talent evaluators.......Cowher had an eye for hybrid DE's that could stand up and develop into dominant 3-4 OLB's. The Steelers were often able to find these players later in the draft, partially because of Cowher's sixth sense about it and partially because not very many other teams were running 3-4 schemes. Same goes for 3-4 DE's. He did miss on a couple of those guys as well too. Alonzo Jackson is the best example of that. In Tomlin's case, he has a better eye for secondary players and for wide receivers. He tends to draft these guys later and develop them. He also has missed on a couple of those guys......Limas Sweed being the best example. They have different strength's as coaches. The challenge for Tomlin is that he has had to fit his natural inclination for Tampa 2 players into the mold of the Steelers 3-4 scheme and still make it his own. In some ways he has failed at this and in some ways he has succeeded big time. I think that Lawrence Timmons and Lamarr Woodley are the perfect examples of this. Both could have been Tampa 2 players no question.......but have done just fine in the 3-4. You can't blame Tomlin for Woodley getting hurt by the way......so I don't understand where you're coming from with the plateauing thing. Same with Mike Wallace. That was their skill sets.....they were put into position the play to their strengths. Knowing a players limitations is a big part of coaching as well. Obviously the biggest advantage both Cowher and Tomlin have had is Ben Roethlisberger. I think both coaches have had a hard time figuring out how best to handle him at times......but he has made them look good more than the other way around. I think Tomlin deserves a few more years to see how this new roster develops. These will truly be his guys. I'm pretty encouraged by what I'm seeing the past few years......so I think the arrow is pointing up.....but we'll see.

Coach LeBeau doesn't have the temperament to be a head coach. He has said that himself. Some coaches are just better suited to be position coaches or coordinators and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I agree with you that the way that LeBeau coaches the 3-4 is going to be harder to continue going forward because the emphasis is on hitting and keeping everything in front of you. The Steelers mantra has been to out physical teams on both sides of the ball for years. They can still do that......but there'll have to be some tweaks which it looks like they are making now. I think what coach LeBeau has been able to accomplish has been remarkable and whenever he does decide to walk away only then will we really realize his impact......changing game or not.

 

[steelc1ty]

All I know is last year LeBeau was using defenses in the beginning of the year that the rest of the league was using at the end.

You don't have schemes outright stolen from you if you don't have your finger on the pulse of the current game.

IMO, Tomlin's problem is one of his strengths....he requires his football players to be multi-faceted. All DL must be able to play all D line positions. Same goes for OL, WR, LB, etc. In theory this works amazingly because it makes the team unpredictable (from a personnel standoint) while allowing for greater team depth. In practice, its sometimes hard to find atheletes who can perform well at all (similar) positions. To his credit, he is changing his mentality (he isn't picking players who show the altheticism to play multiple spots, but lack certain characteristics that make them not as productive...ie: Ziggy Hood).

 

[Vader]

All I know is last year LeBeau was using defenses in the beginning of the year that the rest of the league was using at the end.

You don't have schemes outright stolen from you if you don't have your finger on the pulse of the current game.

IMO, Tomlin's problem is one of his strengths....he requires his football players to be multi-faceted. All DL must be able to play all D line positions. Same goes for OL, WR, LB, etc. In theory this works amazingly because it makes the team unpredictable (from a personnel standoint) while allowing for greater team depth. In practice, its sometimes hard to find atheletes who can perform well at all (similar) positions. To his credit, he is changing his mentality (he isn't picking players who show the altheticism to play multiple spots, but lack certain characteristics that make them not as productive...ie: Ziggy Hood).

Not sure I agree with you about Tomlin wanting multi-faceted players. DeCastro can only play guard (looks like only RG), Foster only plays guard. Adams and Gilbert play tackle... just not very well. McClendon has only played NT. The LBers aren't interchangeable. The only time you see players move is because of injury or because someone gets benched. It isn't a strategy, it comes from necessity.

 

[steelc1ty]

Not sure I agree with you about Tomlin wanting multi-faceted players. DeCastro can only play guard (looks like only RG), Foster only plays guard. Adams and Gilbert play tackle... just not very well. McClendon has only played NT. The LBers aren't interchangeable. The only time you see players move is because of injury or because someone gets benched. It isn't a strategy, it comes from necessity.

Allright, you got me on DeCastro. Not saying under Tomlin we haven't taken guys who are projected to only one spot, but they tend to be the execption, rather than the rule.

Foster came in as a RT and moved to G. Right now he can (and has) started at RT, RG, LG. Adams and Gilbert were both taken as "Tackles" and have playing time at both positions. I've honestly felt Adams might be a better fit at LG anyway (and Gilbert may fall there too). McClendon has never played DE (that I know of) but Mitchell has had interviews where he has mentioned McClendon as "DE" eligible.

Take it a bit further...

Timmons started as an OLB (a bad idea IMO), but moved to ILB. Tomlin liked him, at least in part, because he felt Timmons could be a weak side OLB / ILB.

Ryan McBean, Doug Worthington, Ra'Shon Harris, Cam Heyward, and Tuitt are all 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE's...all the type that are supposed to be able to stop the run and control the line on first down and provide pass rush on pass downs.

Again, not to say we haven't taken specific guys for specific positions, but I think Tomlin has a distinct preference for players that provide multiple skillsets and tries to draft accordingly. Under Cowher we always had one dinstinct (usually) back-up for each position on the field. Tomlin seems to prefer guys like Beachum who are the No1 back-up at mulitple positions and even when selecting starters prefers players who, while they may only ever start at one position, show the capability to move elswhere if needed.

 

[SteelerAl]

Allright, you got me on DeCastro. Not saying under Tomlin we haven't taken guys who are projected to only one spot, but they tend to be the execption, rather than the rule.

Foster came in as a RT and moved to G. Right now he can (and has) started at RT, RG, LG. Adams and Gilbert were both taken as "Tackles" and have playing time at both positions. I've honestly felt Adams might be a better fit at LG anyway (and Gilbert may fall there too). McClendon has never played DE (that I know of) but Mitchell has had interviews where he has mentioned McClendon as "DE" eligible.

Take it a bit further...

Timmons started as an OLB (a bad idea IMO), but moved to ILB. Tomlin liked him, at least in part, because he felt Timmons could be a weak side OLB / ILB.

Ryan McBean, Doug Worthington, Ra'Shon Harris, Cam Heyward, and Tuitt are all 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE's...all the type that are supposed to be able to stop the run and control the line on first down and provide pass rush on pass downs.

Again, not to say we haven't taken specific guys for specific positions, but I think Tomlin has a distinct preference for players that provide multiple skillsets and tries to draft accordingly. Under Cowher we always had one dinstinct (usually) back-up for each position on the field. Tomlin seems to prefer guys like Beachum who are the No1 back-up at mulitple positions and even when selecting starters prefers players who, while they may only ever start at one position, show the capability to move elswhere if needed.

You are definitely reaching. Foster was an UDFA and Beachum - as the 4th guy we picked in the 7th round in 2012 - was basically the same. We were just looking for OL prospects that had some chance of developing into NFL players, not implementing a grand shift towards players that are versatile.

 

[Vader]

I just don't see much difference. Cowher had Essex that jumped all over the OL. I think the reason Tomlin appears to want more versatile players is because right now he doesn't have great starters so he is having to find starters. Adams and Gilbert for example. He doesn't want to move them but Adams can't pass protect and Gilbert can't run block. Adams was getting Ben killed last year so he had to move him to TE. That meant Adams and Gilbert were playing ONE position. They moved Timmons inside because he got hurt and Harrison came on to take the job. Timmons can't play outside. Yes you can move him there but he can't play the position well enough to warrant putting him there. If he ever plays there it is a panic move not because of some intrinsic strategy.

I just don't see the multiple skill sets in these players. Mostly they move because of injury or because they can't do something. I can't think of a single player that they move around (other than Troy who wasn't drafted by Tomlin) because of scheme.

 

[bermudasteel]

Now THIS is the thread that should be 28 pages long!

 

[steelc1ty]

And that is exactly my point. It's not some "intrinsic strategy" to draft a guy to play multiple positions...its an "intrinsic strategy" to draft a guy that PROJECTs to multiple positions.

It used to be Cowher and Colbert drafted a guy. He played well enough to start at a position, back-up that position, or was off the team.

Tomlin and Colbert draft a guy. He plays well enough to start or he gets moved to another position. If he doesn't play well enough to start there he gets relegated to back-up status at both positions. If he can't back-up both positions then he's gone from the team.

The strength of Cowher's methedology is it clearly defined position traits and responsibilities and allowed players to be drafted / developed to those aspects. The weakness is it tended to reduce team depth as players were not typicaly cross trained in different positions' roles.

The strength of Tomlin's methodology is it can help improve team depth and tends to increase team athleticism (as the most athletic players tend to be those that project to multiple positions). The weakness is it tends to create a team of back-ups if you can't find legitimate talent at the starter position (how often have we heard that complaint about our Oline?).

I dont know...maybe its just me, or I'm just not communicating it effectively...but I definately see a difference in draft philosophy between Cowher and Tomlin.

 

[Wingman]

I dont know...maybe its just me, or I'm just not communicating it effectively...but I definately see a difference in draft philosophy between Cowher and Tomlin.

Start the racist comments in 3.....2.......1......

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

damn Asians cant drive!!

 

[Wingman]

damn Asians cant drive!!

Pure classic, from pink panther 2 by Steve Martin to Lilly Tomlin no relation to Mike.

 

[6Rings]

I hope Tomlin never rises to the level of losing 4 AFCC games at home....

 

[Hobbster]

You can change coaches and GM's but comments never change. Shouldn't this be a template as well:
The [insert current coach} and {insert current GM} don't have the [some aspect of coaching, game, draft, team management] that [insert previous coach and GM combo]!

 

[Tibs]

Love Tomlin & Colbert, so glad we have both. LeBeau is in his last season (or two), will be interesting to see the dynamics with Butler & Lake moving forward. Was not a big fan of Haley at first, but I'm starting to come around a bit with him. It's a big relief to see him working well with Ben et al. Adding Porter and Munchak was too good to be true. Looking forward to this season, time to get back in the hunt!