Why the defense has fallen

[MTC]

If you want to look at Cowher, lets see 2000-2006. How were his defensive drafts?

Cowher had Polamalu, a pro bowl player and hall of fame bound player, and Ike Taylor, likely a top 4-6 cornerback in franchise history.

Chris Hope was a good starter. He would be our best safety on the 2015 team.

How about Casey Hampton in the middle! That would be a huge upgrade from what we have now/

Bell when he was healthy was great.

Larry Foote was a fair starter.

Fine add 2007 is you wish ( Timmons and Woodley ) , I get to add 1999 then. 1999 was a great draft. A Smith and Joey Porter

I see much better defensive drafting under Cowher don't you?

Cowher picked pro bowl guys at DE, NT, OLB, CB, and S

Tomlin's pro bowl guys....just one. Timmons. Let me know if I missed one.

Damn! Nice facts there

 

[Chicoman]

Cowher drafted Defensive guys who could tackle hit and play good fundamental football and impose their will on an opponent. Larry Foote was a perfect example of this....and for all his short comings as a superior athlete Larry Foote was a damn good player!

Tomlin has drafted finesse guys with poor tackling skills but tremendous freakish athletes....ala Shazier. Even Timmons IMHO is more of a finesse guy than Cowher's Steelers he drafted. Jarvis Jones is a complete joke! When I see Jarvis square up and knock a player into the dirt I might start thinking differently but his matador style of tackle football is not up to what I'd say is NFL caliber play from a starting LB'er.

We need guys who can be physical and knock someone's teeth down their throat when they tackle! We don't have that right now with the exception of a few guys....Cam Heyward IMO he is the exception along with Deebo too.

 

[steelhurt]

Could Cowher have ever won a SB if Rooney hadn't "suggested" he draft Ben?

He got damn close with the infamous Neil O'Donnell losing to the Cowboys in the SB and to the Chargers in the AFCC game. He got to several AFCC games with Korky to only have him play like crap. AS soon as he got a good QB didn't take long to win one though.

We don't know for certain what went on with drafting Ben. There was talk that Cowher wanted to draft a LT but was overridden by Dan Rooney. If that's the case I'm glad he intervened. I do know that Cowher's drafts are far better than Tomlins. Hands down.

 

[stillwright]

Cowher vs Tomlin ....I didn't see that coming.

 

[hendrickson]

Well who would you want to compare Tomlin to ?

The difference in the defense is in a stark contrast to his predecessor and not for the better.

 

[MTC]

You act like every team other than the Steelers have been hitting with every draft pick. If you go back and look at other team's drafts, we're probably about league average with picks sticking. Although hitting big with Bell and Brown obviously explains why our offense is tops in the league while there hasn't been anyone close to those two in terms of impact on the defense. It also comes down to exceptional talent getting old/retiring. Troy gone and had some down years, Ike used to be lockdown and fell off late and is now gone, Deebo is in his late 30's and was gone for a year. 2 former DPOY right there and you wonder why our defense has taken a dive? Look at the Ravens, same thing happened to them when Reed and Ray Ray left...they have been terrible defending the pass the last 2 seasons. Sound familiar? It's pretty tough to replace a player that was the best at his position in the league and expect to maintain that level of play.

Understandable in that it's hard to replace all pro veterans. However, it is up to the coaches to develop the depth behind that talent. The Steelers stuck with their veterans way past their shelf life. It was pretty evident in Troy's/Ike's play a couple seasons ago. Instead of keeping them as starters. The coaches should've minimized their roles and add in the young ones to gain experience and develop. It's hard to develop if you don't play

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Cowher drafted Defensive guys who could tackle hit and play good fundamental football and impose their will on an opponent. Larry Foote was a perfect example of this....and for all his short comings as a superior athlete Larry Foote was a damn good player!

Tomlin has drafted finesse guys with poor tackling skills but tremendous freakish athletes....ala Shazier. Even Timmons IMHO is more of a finesse guy than Cowher's Steelers he drafted. Jarvis Jones is a complete joke! When I see Jarvis square up and knock a player into the dirt I might start thinking differently but his matador style of tackle football is not up to what I'd say is NFL caliber play from a starting LB'er.

We need guys who can be physical and knock someone's teeth down their throat when they tackle! We don't have that right now with the exception of a few guys....Cam Heyward IMO he is the exception along with Deebo too.

I will recognize that the offense has changed in the last 10-15 years and almost everyone is going to a passing game so you need more cover guys everywhere on defense except the line. So you might want some smaller but faster LB's and S. But if that's what Tombert is trying to do, they're doing a lousy job of finding talent. Who's going to cover Gronk? Shazier maybe? Everybody else is 5'9" 180 and gonna bounce off.

 

[Steeltime]

Cowher vs Tomlin ....I didn't see that coming.

I guess we could bring Noll into the discussion, and those three coaches go back to the Johnson administration.

Think about that for a second.

 

[fedderone]

Can we all concede Colbert/Cowher could draft defense but suuuuuuuuuucked at drafting offense, and that the inverse is true for Colbert/Tomlin?
Please take the homer coach lenses out of your homer goggles.
In the SuperBowl Cowher won, the awesome D bailed out the pitiful O......which was essentially the calling card for the Cowher era.
Lights out D. Vanilla conservative offense.
Now the shoes on the other foot and it's like everyone has lost their minds.
Our D has been piggybacking these teams for the better part of the past two decades where the O should be paying the chiropractic bill.
Well now it's the Os turn. It's time they pull their weight and then some more.
We can be the 2000 Rams.
There's more than one side of the ball.
Yeah, it might be weird giving up 100 yard rushers, 300 yard passers, and 30+ points per game.
But if we're winning, what difference does it make?

 

[hendrickson]

Really, Cowher sucked at drafting offense, Ben, Hines, Plax, Bam, Heath, Faneca, John Jackson, Santonio, Leon Searcy, Andre Hastings and Randle El etc all say hello. He drafted offense much better than Tomlin drafts defense. The best players on offense in Tomlin's Super Bowl were all Cowher draft picks. Of course his best players on defense were all Cowher draftees and remained the best defensive players for all of Tomlin's stay here.

 

[FAB802]

It's good knowing someone can leave for a month and come back to find this same **** on the front page hiding in an unrelated thread.

 

[MTC]

I will recognize that the offense has changed in the last 10-15 years and almost everyone is going to a passing game so you need more cover guys everywhere on defense except the line. So you might want some smaller but faster LB's and S. But if that's what Tombert is trying to do, they're doing a lousy job of finding talent. Who's going to cover Gronk? Shazier maybe? Everybody else is 5'9" 180 and gonna bounce off.

Exactly. And that is the reason why so many players like Gronk always have ACL tears is because of the fact the smaller players can't take a player like Gronk down. So they resort into missling into the ball carriers legs. It changes the game a lot

 

[MTC]

The Tomlin bashing is justifiable. Cowher was better at developing talent overall. Even when players had injuries. The back up's contributed. Deebo was a backup, Chris Hoke, Deshea Townsend early in his career, Cedric Wilson had a good play off series on the run to XL. The Steelers now? One injury to a starter the next man up doesn't produce

 

[stillwright]

I will recognize that the offense has changed in the last 10-15 years and almost everyone is going to a passing game so you need more cover guys everywhere on defense except the line. So you might want some smaller but faster LB's and S. But if that's what Tombert is trying to do, they're doing a lousy job of finding talent. Who's going to cover Gronk? Shazier maybe? Everybody else is 5'9" 180 and gonna bounce off.

The truth be told every team has a hard time finding someone to cover Gronk. That is why they call him the best TE in the game.

 

[stillwright]

The Tomlin bashing is justifiable. Cowher was better at developing talent overall. Even when players had injuries. The back up's contributed. Deebo was a backup, Chris Hoke, Deshea Townsend early in his career, Cedric Wilson had a good play off series on the run to XL. The Steelers now? One injury to a starter the next man up doesn't produce

Nope. Just old and tiring. I personally remember all the FIRE threads on here for Cowher. Now he is the great messiah of football. Go figure.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Nope. Just old and tiring. I personally remember all the FIRE threads on here for Cowher. Now he is the great messiah of football. Go figure.

That mostly related to playing MartyBall though, which got you a lot of wins in the regular season, in the playoffs where you face better and higher-scoring teams every week no so much.

 

[insaniti]

Well who would you want to compare Tomlin to ?

The difference in the defense is in a stark contrast to his predecessor and not for the better.

And the difference in offense is quite stark now. Lets not forget that it took how many years for Cowher to win a Super Bowl? He went to two his entire tenure here, Tomlin has already been to two. All this Cowher players bullshit is just that, bullshit. People want to pretend that Cowher was this all knowing, all fearing, no mistakes kind of coach...and yet he started Dwayne Washington and Chad Scott at CB for YEARS! There were plenty of years with Cowher where the defense wasn't very good at all.

In 1998 we started the season off 5-3 at the halfway point, finished 7-9, losing the last FIVE games of the year. In 1999, again started out 5-3 at the halfway point, finished the year at 6-10, losing SIX games in a row. In 2000, guess what? Again a 5-3 start, only to finish 9-7. These were years with names like Kirkland, Holmes, Gildon, Porter, Smith, Van Oelhoffen, Emmons, Steed, Lake, Perry... It's all revisionist history at the this point. We hit a low spot in the current coaches tenure and everyone forgets what it was like 15 years ago.

We have a lot of young players that need to step up, we also have a new coordinator that needs to put them in the best position to succeed. But seriously, enough of the Cowher vs Tomlin arguments. They are played out and prove nothing other than the fact that you don't remember ****.

 

[Stryker]

Cowher did an excellent job drafting defensive players in a defensive minded league, and it was very successful.

Tomlin does an excellent job drafting offensive talent in an offensive minded league, and he is having success.

Looks to me that both are drafting in accordance with league rules/trends which is what made both of them successful.

 

[Coach]

Cowher wasn't flawless.

He just got more out of less than anyone else, and lost less frequently to the bad teams. Losing O'Donnell ( Rooney didn't want to pay ) hurt. Having to deal with Tomzack, Stewart, Graham and Miller at Quarterback.....No coach could have done better. If Tomlin had to play those jokers for years, he's not getting a 2nd contract.

The players under Cowher seemed more focused and intense. And less prone to do stupid things off the field.

Cowher's record with Ben in the playoffs 5-1 !

Tomlin's record with Ben in rhe playoffs 5-4 !

 

[MTC]

Nope. Just old and tiring. I personally remember all the FIRE threads on here for Cowher. Now he is the great messiah of football. Go figure.

Eh fans want a winning season again. Can you blame them? Me personally, I'm not going to call for Tomlins head. If they lose they lose. I cannot determine the outcome. However I would like to see the depth on Tomlins 53 man roster to develop. I feel with Cowher, the Steelers had better depth. If Cam Heyward gets hurt, if William Gay gets hurt. Who is gonna step up?

 

[MTC]

I do give Tombert credit in developing the offense however. Brown, Bell, Bryant are going to be special as long as no off field issues hamper them down. But the offense can only score so much before the defense has to carry its weight too

 

[fedderone]

Really, Cowher sucked at drafting offense, Ben, Hines, Plax, Bam, Heath, Faneca, John Jackson, Santonio, Leon Searcy, Andre Hastings and Randle El etc all say hello. He drafted offense much better than Tomlin drafts defense. The best players on offense in Tomlin's Super Bowl were all Cowher draft picks. Of course his best players on defense were all Cowher draftees and remained the best defensive players for all of Tomlin's stay here.

I am besides myself with you lumping in Plaxiglass, Bam, Santonio, Hastings, Searcy, and Randle El in with the others as if they're on par with them.
That's beyond a reach.
Some of those guys had their 15 minutes of fame, or maybe their one good season. But they're all FAR from being 10+ year vets that are perennial all-pros/probowlers like Ben, Heath, and Hines.

I'm shocked that the best players in Tomlin's SuperBowl were Cowher players considering it was his second year in the league and only had two drafts up to that point,
LOTS of SuperBowl teams win with all rookies and 2nd year players.
SMH.

 

[madinsomniac]

The defense isn't good because the way it was built was basically made illegal by the NFL. The 3/4 zone blitz was made to intimidate players into bad decisions.... bad throws because of pressure, short-arming catches because of hits, fumbles while trying to protect yourself from a hit.... the nfl zeroed in on us more than anyone else. we basically had to change the way the defense played then force fit the players we had into roles they didn't really fit... it was similar to what happed to the Oline in the first part of Tomlin's tenure only it was forced on us and not self inflicted. The team hasn't yet really found a solid replacement system or fit new players in yet... it is a process.

 

[bermudasteel]

Really, Cowher sucked at drafting offense, Ben, Hines, Plax, Bam, Heath, Faneca, John Jackson, Santonio, Leon Searcy, Andre Hastings and Randle El etc all say hello. He drafted offense much better than Tomlin drafts defense. The best players on offense in Tomlin's Super Bowl were all Cowher draft picks. Of course his best players on defense were all Cowher draftees and remained the best defensive players for all of Tomlin's stay here.

Question - how many PPG do you think that stellar cast put up on average under Coach Cowher? I think it would be a safe bet to say that they averaged under 24 points a game - and the defense, back then, held teams to about 13 points...

 

[Coach]

Question - how many PPG do you think that stellar cast put up on average under Coach Cowher? I think it would be a safe bet to say that they averaged under 24 points a game - and the defense, back then, held teams to about 13 points...

Cower's D was at its peak in 2005. That team gave up 258 points for the season. Last years defense gave up 368 points. So 110 points less a season, or 6.875 points less per game.