Why the defense has fallen

[hendrickson]

The Steelers have averaged over 24 points a game ONCE under Tomlin, last year. The Steelers scored as much or more under Cowher .

 

[hendrickson]

I am besides myself with you lumping in Plaxiglass, Bam, Santonio, Hastings, Searcy, and Randle El in with the others as if they're on par with them.
That's beyond a reach.
Some of those guys had their 15 minutes of fame, or maybe their one good season. But they're all FAR from being 10+ year vets that are perennial all-pros/probowlers like Ben, Heath, and Hines.

I'm shocked that the best players in Tomlin's SuperBowl were Cowher players considering it was his second year in the league and only had two drafts up to that point,
LOTS of SuperBowl teams win with all rookies and 2nd year players.
SMH.

Funny. I was responding to a poster who said Cowher sucked at drafting offense and Tomlin sucked at drafting defense. I named good to great layers Cowher drafted on offense that were better than anything Tomlin has drafted on defense.

Of course Cowher's best players on defense carried Tomlin to a Super Bowl in his second year but I see you failed to acknowledge that Tomlin's best defensive players were still Cowher draftees in Tomlin'8th year and throughout Tomlin'career, surely an oversight on your part.

 

[skyhigh44]

Unfortunately the games changed and guys are coaching under a new set of rules. Gone are the days of practicing twice a day, the number of practices have been reduced, player safety has become the "hot topic" which limits what defenders can and can't do. To compare the defenses of even mid-90's to today's would be futile. Gone are the NFL's hardest hits video tapes and replaced by today's fantasy football guide to offense. Sadly, it will be reduced to nothing more than our generations memories.

 

[madinsomniac]

Again, the rules are drastically slanted in the offenses favor. Decades ago, in the 70's, the rules were slanted for super conservative play. These days the rules have been tweaked and changed until the play favors incredibly aggressive play, but the coaches and mindset still leans to old school philosophies that might not be as true as they used to be... the whole league is trying to adjust and the rules are still being drastically changed every year it seems

 

[hendrickson]

The rule changes of course changed the game but does not excuse the fact we are terrible on defense with respect to.our peers. I guess only Tomlin has the excuse the game has changed.

 

[stillwright]

The rule changes of course changed the game but does not excuse the fact we are terrible on defense with respect to.our peers. I guess only Tomlin has the excuse the game has changed.

About time we got another "bashing" Tomlin thread going. Perfect timing right before the start of the new seaaon.

 

[insaniti]

Funny. I was responding to a poster who said Cowher sucked at drafting offense and Tomlin sucked at drafting defense. I named good to great layers Cowher drafted on offense that were better than anything Tomlin has drafted on defense.

Of course Cowher's best players on defense carried Tomlin to a Super Bowl in his second year but I see you failed to acknowledge that Tomlin's best defensive players were still Cowher draftees in Tomlin'8th year and throughout Tomlin'career, surely an oversight on your part.

This is a joke right? You're overrating Santonio, Bam, Searcy, Randel El, and underrating Timmons, Heyward, and Lewis, and it's too early to tell on players like Shazier, Tuitt, Dupree, etc.

 

[fedderone]

Funny. I was responding to a poster who said Cowher sucked at drafting offense and Tomlin sucked at drafting defense. I named good to great layers Cowher drafted on offense that were better than anything Tomlin has drafted on defense.

Of course Cowher's best players on defense carried Tomlin to a Super Bowl in his second year but I see you failed to acknowledge that Tomlin's best defensive players were still Cowher draftees in Tomlin'8th year and throughout Tomlin'career, surely an oversight on your part.

Funny, you can cite the three players Cowher REALLY hit on offense, while leaving out the Troy Edwards of the world, Charles Davenport, Charles Johnson, Jamain Stephens, Will Blackwell, Paul Wiggins, Chris Conrad, and Willie Reid to name a few.
And this is just the offensive side of the ball. Cowher actually did miss on the defensive side of the ball, too more than you're admitting. ( Looking at you, Deon Figures, Steve Conley, Jeremy Staat, Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Anthony Smith ).

Yeah, wow, how amazing the good/great players that have now played on the same team for more than 8 years in a row are kept by said team.
I guess Tomlin should have just gotten have asked the Rooneys to trade or release all players so he could truly build his own team and put his stamp on it himself. Cause that's how running an NFL franchise works.
Cause Cowher had zero Noll players on the 96 SB team, right?
And as pointed out by another poster, Cowher didn't get that ring until the Rooneys "suggested" he take Ben instead of who Cowher wanted.

I guess that part of history happened during a drunken black out in your life.

 

[Punxsutawney]

The defense isn't good because the way it was built was basically made illegal by the NFL. The 3/4 zone blitz was made to intimidate players into bad decisions.... bad throws because of pressure, short-arming catches because of hits, fumbles while trying to protect yourself from a hit.... the nfl zeroed in on us more than anyone else. we basically had to change the way the defense played then force fit the players we had into roles they didn't really fit... it was similar to what happed to the Oline in the first part of Tomlin's tenure only it was forced on us and not self inflicted. The team hasn't yet really found a solid replacement system or fit new players in yet... it is a process.

Rule changes are not why they cannot rush the passer. The rush and blitzes have become ineffective because the Steelers LBs have become too small and weak.

Look at the game's better 3-4 defenses like the Ravens and 49ers. They employ big, physical LBs who can defeat blocks on their way to QB. There's a reason why Deebo is still the Steelers' best pass rusher, despite losing a couple steps. He's still freakishly strong and physical.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Funny, you can cite the three players Cowher REALLY hit on offense, while leaving out the Troy Edwards of the world, Charles Davenport, Charles Johnson, Jamain Stephens, Will Blackwell, Paul Wiggins, Chris Conrad, and Willie Reid to name a few.
And this is just the offensive side of the ball. Cowher actually did miss on the defensive side of the ball, too more than you're admitting. ( Looking at you, Deon Figures, Steve Conley, Jeremy Staat, Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Anthony Smith ).

Yeah, wow, how amazing the good/great players that have now played on the same team for more than 8 years in a row are kept by said team.
I guess Tomlin should have just gotten have asked the Rooneys to trade or release all players so he could truly build his own team and put his stamp on it himself. Cause that's how running an NFL franchise works.
Cause Cowher had zero Noll players on the 96 SB team, right?
And as pointed out by another poster, Cowher didn't get that ring until the Rooneys "suggested" he take Ben instead of who Cowher wanted.

I guess that part of history happened during a drunken black out in your life.

Everyone misses on picks. What ultimately matters is the overall talent you accumulate.

Timmons and Heyward are above-average players, but when those two, by a considerable margin, compose to date the best Tomlin and Colbert done on the defensive side in nearly a decade of drafting, their competency has to be brought into question.

 

[insaniti]

Rule changes are not why they cannot rush the passer. The rush and blitzes have become ineffective because the Steelers LBs have become too small and weak.

Look at the game's better 3-4 defenses like the Ravens and 49ers. They employ big, physical LBs who can defeat blocks on their way to QB. There's a reason why Deebo is still the Steelers' best pass rusher, despite losing a couple steps. He's still freakishly strong and physical.

Jason Worilds was one of the strongest guys on the team, one of the few players that could actually workout WITH Harrison, didn't seem to help him much. Woodley wasn't ever small and was actually accused of "eating himself out of the league" even tho his weight stayed the same throughout his career. The "small" LBers are Shazier, Spense, and Jones, and even Jones isn't as "small" as people think. Shazier is also much bigger than people think. It has less to do with size, and everything to do with technique, which you can see in Dupree, isn't really taught in college.

 

[bermudasteel]

Cower's D was at its peak in 2005. That team gave up 258 points for the season. Last years defense gave up 368 points. So 110 points less a season, or 6.875 points less per game.

That's NOT what I asked you. I asked you how many points the OFFENSE put up?

 

[hendrickson]

Funny, you can cite the three players Cowher REALLY hit on offense, while leaving out the Troy Edwards of the world, Charles Davenport, Charles Johnson, Jamain Stephens, Will Blackwell, Paul Wiggins, Chris Conrad, and Willie Reid to name a few.
And this is just the offensive side of the ball. Cowher actually did miss on the defensive side of the ball, too more than you're admitting. ( Looking at you, Deon Figures, Steve Conley, Jeremy Staat, Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, and Anthony Smith ).

Yeah, wow, how amazing the good/great players that have now played on the same team for more than 8 years in a row are kept by said team.
I guess Tomlin should have just gotten have asked the Rooneys to trade or release all players so he could truly build his own team and put his stamp on it himself. Cause that's how running an NFL franchise works.
Cause Cowher had zero Noll players on the 96 SB team, right?
And as pointed out by another poster, Cowher didn't get that ring until the Rooneys "suggested" he take Ben instead of who Cowher wanted.

I guess that part of history happened during a drunken black out in your life.

Not too swift are you ? The offensive players I mentioned were all better than Jarvis, Hood, and the rest of the Tomlin misses on defense. EIGHT years is an eternity in the NFL and of course the players that Cowher drafted and were the core of Tomlin teams played for Cowher for years so the fact Tomlin could never effectively replace players with 10 plus years in the NFL them is why we are in the shape we are in now. Funny how in the eight years Tomlin has failed to groom replacements and drafted poorly to fill the aging players shoes.

Charles Johnson had a 1,000 yard season for the Steelers, kinda better than Hood, Jarvis and the ton of bad DBs Tomlin drafted and of course you use Lewis as an example of a good player Tomlin drafted whne he had ONE good year her. Not even the 15 minutes of fame you accused me of when I listed Randle El , Searcy and others. By the way Searcy was a GREAT player, too bad the Steelers decided to let him go in his prime.

There is NO excuse for Tomlin's poor drafting on defense other than the fact he does not know what he is doing. Drafting 4-3 Cover 2 players while we have been running a 3-4 for 8 years is just plain stupid.

 

[fedderone]

Everyone misses on picks. What ultimately matters is the overall talent you accumulate.

Timmons and Heyward are above-average players, but when those two, by a considerable margin, compose to date the best Tomlin and Colbert done on the defensive side in nearly a decade of drafting, their competency has to be brought into question.

Exactly, Punx.
This is precisely my point.
I'm the guy that doesn't like giving the QB ( Ben ) all the praise, nor all the blame in each circumstance.
Colbert is just as much to blame/credit as Cowher and Tomlin are......as are the Rooneys.
From remembering all I've read, they have their scouting department/coaches, they give their recommendations, and the triumvirate of Colbert - Tomlin/Cowher - The Rooneys have final say.

Hendrickson - You wanna say Cowher did a better job of getting more out of less than Tomlin ( Someone posted earlier in here )?
I'm on board with that. That's pretty obvious.
While not a great X's and O's guy, Cowher was a great motivator and the players would run through walls for him.
I do think Tomlin is missing that trait or it's his weakest attribute. No dispute there.
I think Tomlin is better Xs and Os ( not really saying much and like saying the thinnest fat kid ) and also more open to change/willing to take a chance/experimental/etc....which is needed in today's pussified and ever rule changing NFL.
I also sense we're seeing the beginning of a HUGE defensive philosophy change from LeBeau to Butler and that we don't have many of the horses needed.
We're going to struggle for a year or two......BIG.

 

[hendrickson]

I am besides myself with you lumping in Plaxiglass, Bam, Santonio, Hastings, Searcy, and Randle El in with the others as if they're on par with them.
That's beyond a reach.
Some of those guys had their 15 minutes of fame, or maybe their one good season. But they're all FAR from being 10+ year vets that are perennial all-pros/probowlers like Ben, Heath, and Hines.

I'm shocked that the best players in Tomlin's SuperBowl were Cowher players considering it was his second year in the league and only had two drafts up to that point,
LOTS of SuperBowl teams win with all rookies and 2nd year players.
SMH.

You use Lewis who had one good year with the Steelers yet the players I mentioned were all better than Lewis, more accomplished as Steelers and had better careers, pick and choose much? Of course the fact that they were all better than the defensive picks of Tomlin was the point and Jarvis, Hood, and the rest of the mediocre Tomlin defensive picks is why the defense is soft, can't stop the run or pass and has no pass rush or ability to force turnovers for 4 years straight. I would LOVE to see 15 minutes of fame from the garbage he has drafted, hell I would settle for 5 minutes.

 

[madinsomniac]

College is also a big problem these days... it is all so system heavy that its hard to project how players will translate to the pros and even harder for certain positions where basically there aren't many or any used in the way they would be in the pros.... they need a minors system and they don't seem to want to do it because it will rip up college ball too much.

 

[hendrickson]

Where has Tomlin ever shown the ability to experiment, 9 years in and we know next to nothing of his philosophy on defense or offense. We have run a scattershot offense for years and he was wanting to keep Arians on as OC before the Rooneys stepped in and let him go. LeBeau has carried the defense for 8 years eve though Tomlin keeps drafting players that don't fit the 3-4 hat Lebeau runs. You are right that we are going to be bad defensively for at least 2 years but I think it will be much longer, Tomlin had the worst pass defense in 2006 with the Vikings in his only year as a DC, their is no evidence that Tomlin can do anything on defense without Cowher's[players and LeBeau and the needle is pointing downward.

 

[obxsteeler]

Please keep in mind you are talking about 15 yrs. of Cowher drafts and 8 of Tomlins.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Please keep in mind you are talking about 15 yrs. of Cowher drafts and 8 of Tomlins.

Yes but when it comes to drafting defensive talent, the arrow is pointing down, or our performance versus pedigree ratio is below the line, obviously.

 

[stillwright]

Not too swift are you ? The offensive players I mentioned were all better than Jarvis, Hood, and the rest of the Tomlin misses on defense. EIGHT years is an eternity in the NFL and of course the players that Cowher drafted and were the core of Tomlin teams played for Cowher for years so the fact Tomlin could never effectively replace players with 10 plus years in the NFL them is why we are in the shape we are in now. Funny how in the eight years Tomlin has failed to groom replacements and drafted poorly to fill the aging players shoes.

Charles Johnson had a 1,000 yard season for the Steelers, kinda better than Hood, Jarvis and the ton of bad DBs Tomlin drafted and of course you use Lewis as an example of a good player Tomlin drafted whne he had ONE good year her. Not even the 15 minutes of fame you accused me of when I listed Randle El , Searcy and others. By the way Searcy was a GREAT player, too bad the Steelers decided to let him go in his prime.

There is NO excuse for Tomlin's poor drafting on defense other than the fact he does not know what he is doing. Drafting 4-3 Cover 2 players while we have been running a 3-4 for 8 years is just plain stupid.

So you think this is all Tomlin? Answer me this. If Tomlin has been drafting 4-3 cover 2 players why did Dick stick around and then forced out this past off-season? Kind of mind boggling for him to stick around when they were drafting guys that he knew didn't fit his scheme. Hell he worked on 1 year contracts but for some reason kept on signing them. He would of signed another one this off season but the Steelers hid the pen from him.

 

[MTC]

Exactly, Punx.
This is precisely my point.
I'm the guy that doesn't like giving the QB ( Ben ) all the praise, nor all the blame in each circumstance.
Colbert is just as much to blame/credit as Cowher and Tomlin are......as are the Rooneys.
From remembering all I've read, they have their scouting department/coaches, they give their recommendations, and the triumvirate of Colbert - Tomlin/Cowher - The Rooneys have final say.

Hendrickson - You wanna say Cowher did a better job of getting more out of less than Tomlin ( Someone posted earlier in here )?
I'm on board with that. That's pretty obvious.
While not a great X's and O's guy, Cowher was a great motivator and the players would run through walls for him.
I do think Tomlin is missing that trait or it's his weakest attribute. No dispute there.
I think Tomlin is better Xs and Os ( not really saying much and like saying the thinnest fat kid ) and also more open to change/willing to take a chance/experimental/etc....which is needed in today's pussified and ever rule changing NFL.
I also sense we're seeing the beginning of a HUGE defensive philosophy change from LeBeau to Butler and that we don't have many of the horses needed.
We're going to struggle for a year or two......BIG.

Tomlin is a better X's and O's guy. It's evident in the offense he has built. His coaching style however does not develop players. I think the X's and O's on the defensive side are too complicated for the majority of the players to understand. Cowhers defense was light years ahead of what we have now. 2008 being an exception. Most of Cowhers players, but I will give Tomlin some credit for that season

 

[Ron Burgundy]

So you think this is all Tomlin? Answer me this. If Tomlin has been drafting 4-3 cover 2 players why did Dick stick around and then forced out this past off-season? Kind of mind boggling for him to stick around when they were drafting guys that he knew didn't fit his scheme. Hell he worked on 1 year contracts but for some reason kept on signing them. He would of signed another one this off season but the Steelers hid the pen from him.

The team has had the same GM since the second half of Cowher's tenure, yet with a different HC the quality of defensive draft picks has dropped markedly.
So either:
1. Cowher's input on drafting defensive players was better.
2. Tomlin's input on drafting defensive players is worse.
3. Colbert suddenly became retarded in 2007.

 

[Stryker]

Tomlin hit pretty well on his first 2 defensive picks. Timmons and Woodley. It's a big reason why we won a superbowl and made it to another.

 

[hendrickson]

The product on defense is finally all Tomlins, it is not pretty and will get worse the more direct input he has with it, he is not a defensive guru and sucks at both picking and developing DIbs , his only alleged strength.

 

[fedderone]

Not too swift are you ? The offensive players I mentioned were all better than Jarvis, Hood, and the rest of the Tomlin misses on defense. EIGHT years is an eternity in the NFL and of course the players that Cowher drafted and were the core of Tomlin teams played for Cowher for years so the fact Tomlin could never effectively replace players with 10 plus years in the NFL them is why we are in the shape we are in now. Funny how in the eight years Tomlin has failed to groom replacements and drafted poorly to fill the aging players shoes.

Charles Johnson had a 1,000 yard season for the Steelers, kinda better than Hood, Jarvis and the ton of bad DBs Tomlin drafted and of course you use Lewis as an example of a good player Tomlin drafted whne he had ONE good year her. Not even the 15 minutes of fame you accused me of when I listed Randle El , Searcy and others. By the way Searcy was a GREAT player, too bad the Steelers decided to let him go in his prime.

There is NO excuse for Tomlin's poor drafting on defense other than the fact he does not know what he is doing. Drafting 4-3 Cover 2 players while we have been running a 3-4 for 8 years is just plain stupid.

I think it's you who's not too swift. In this post and two others you keep saying that I used Lewis as a reference. I haven't typed his name once in this entire argument.
So is our offense better or worse under Tomlin than it was under Cowher?
Bell, Brown, Pouncey, DeCastro, Beachum, maybe Bryant when/if he gets his head screwed on right.
All Cowher guys, right? Tomlin had nothing to do with any of those drafts and developments?
Our defense is WAY worse. No disputing that.
I'm thinking that Tomlin inherited a franchise QB who'd been the most sacked in the league under Cowher and wanted to get him some protection and some weapons before his career was over. I think Tomlin was quoted as much when he was hired because of how awful the line was he inherited.
Maybe as a first year and young HC, he wanted to keep some experienced guys like LeBeau and Arians around for some tutelage and guidance. I honestly can't say for 100% certainty.
But it's clear that all our woes are squarely on Tomlin and any positives belong somewhere else.